Hydraulic Disc Brakes
Hydraulic Disc Brakes
I have disc brakes fitted to a few bikes now. Two have TRP HY RD fitted and one has Hayes mech disc fitted.
With both the TRP HY RD fitted bikes I experience a lot of 'judder' under heavy braking, with the mech disc equipped bike I don't experience this.
Prior to fitting the TRP HY RD brakes there was no judder.
All the bikes are designed for disc brakes.
I have tried the following to attempt to remedy the problem ...
1 - replacing the rotor in case it is warped or uneven.
2 - adjusting the wheel bearings in case they are loose
3 - adjusting the headset beatings - initially I tightened the top nut to 2Nm, but I tried going up to 4Nm
None of these things made any difference.
I suppose disc brakes put more force on headset bearings than rim brakes as they have more mechanical advantage as the braking point is further away from the bearing and they are more powerful?? Hydraulic discs are probably even more powerful?
Is this a common problem?
Are there any solutions?
With both the TRP HY RD fitted bikes I experience a lot of 'judder' under heavy braking, with the mech disc equipped bike I don't experience this.
Prior to fitting the TRP HY RD brakes there was no judder.
All the bikes are designed for disc brakes.
I have tried the following to attempt to remedy the problem ...
1 - replacing the rotor in case it is warped or uneven.
2 - adjusting the wheel bearings in case they are loose
3 - adjusting the headset beatings - initially I tightened the top nut to 2Nm, but I tried going up to 4Nm
None of these things made any difference.
I suppose disc brakes put more force on headset bearings than rim brakes as they have more mechanical advantage as the braking point is further away from the bearing and they are more powerful?? Hydraulic discs are probably even more powerful?
Is this a common problem?
Are there any solutions?
-
- Posts: 2199
- Joined: 20 May 2011, 11:23am
- Location: South Birmingham
Re: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
Tried this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T2RLgQoyvs
Also consider swopping to sintered discs if you are using organic - my be shop did this to cure a similar problem on mine. But I'd look at careful alignment first.
Also consider swopping to sintered discs if you are using organic - my be shop did this to cure a similar problem on mine. But I'd look at careful alignment first.
Brompton, Condor Heritage, creaky joints and thinning white (formerly grey) hair
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !
- NATURAL ANKLING
- Posts: 13780
- Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
- Location: English Riviera
Re: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
Hi,
I am not conversant with hydraulic brakes on cycles at all and little experience with disc brakes on my bike which I have been riding for some months.
Though have worked extensively on cars and motorcycles for nearly forty years.
Never seen that problem on motor vehicles which I worked on myself.
Vibration is either lose or malaligned parts / warped /non manufacturer recommended parts
In the video it suggests that the parts be faced with fancy tools.
In my opinion this is to correct badly manufactured parts that should never be there, quality control needs to be investigated as these are brakes........
You need to look closely at alignment of pads / callipers first, then the disc which even new might be warped / integrity of mounting?
Quality control is necessary in ALL machined / made parts to ensure suitability and of course quality for end user.
I am not conversant with hydraulic brakes on cycles at all and little experience with disc brakes on my bike which I have been riding for some months.
Though have worked extensively on cars and motorcycles for nearly forty years.
Never seen that problem on motor vehicles which I worked on myself.
Vibration is either lose or malaligned parts / warped /non manufacturer recommended parts
In the video it suggests that the parts be faced with fancy tools.
In my opinion this is to correct badly manufactured parts that should never be there, quality control needs to be investigated as these are brakes........
You need to look closely at alignment of pads / callipers first, then the disc which even new might be warped / integrity of mounting?
Quality control is necessary in ALL machined / made parts to ensure suitability and of course quality for end user.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
Re: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
the #1 reasons for judder are contamination and disc thickness variation (new discs are never perfect...).
Discs can be really quite warped and not cause judder, but the slightest thickness variation will cause it. Often the two things go hand in hand because a warped disc soon wears on the high spots and then becomes uneven in thickness.
That the brakes judder with the HyRd brakes may indicate that they need bleeding out (even a tiny air bubble will work like a spring).
If you fit a disc to the front that has been run on the rear for a while, it ought to be worn so that it has a consistent thickness. This will reduce the chances of judder. Using more abrasive pads will help too.
Other things that can make a difference are
- fingerprints on the disc
- tiny splashes of lube or polish on the disc
- contamination in the solvent that you use to clean the disc
- contamination of the pads
- caliper alignment
- pad wear (tapered pads can do weird things in hydraulic systems)
- loose bolts
but I'm sure there are others too...
cheers
Discs can be really quite warped and not cause judder, but the slightest thickness variation will cause it. Often the two things go hand in hand because a warped disc soon wears on the high spots and then becomes uneven in thickness.
That the brakes judder with the HyRd brakes may indicate that they need bleeding out (even a tiny air bubble will work like a spring).
If you fit a disc to the front that has been run on the rear for a while, it ought to be worn so that it has a consistent thickness. This will reduce the chances of judder. Using more abrasive pads will help too.
Other things that can make a difference are
- fingerprints on the disc
- tiny splashes of lube or polish on the disc
- contamination in the solvent that you use to clean the disc
- contamination of the pads
- caliper alignment
- pad wear (tapered pads can do weird things in hydraulic systems)
- loose bolts
but I'm sure there are others too...
cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
Discs are used and on installations that previously did not judder.
Similarly the calipers worked ok so probably not air in line.
I'll try cleaning and aligning.
Similarly the calipers worked ok so probably not air in line.
I'll try cleaning and aligning.
Re: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
Can't be air in line on HY RD can it!!!!
- NATURAL ANKLING
- Posts: 13780
- Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
- Location: English Riviera
Re: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
Hi,
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic ... ake-judder
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=72021.50
You are not alone it seems.
It would be interesting to look at pads and see how they have worn?
Did it do it from new pads?
If the pads are wearing at an angle this might tell you some thing like the whole mechanism is flexing under braking, which is not good.
I would start with looking at pads and work on to aligning them onto disc (sitting flat) if the pads are flat to start with?
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic ... ake-judder
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=72021.50
You are not alone it seems.
It would be interesting to look at pads and see how they have worn?
Did it do it from new pads?
If the pads are wearing at an angle this might tell you some thing like the whole mechanism is flexing under braking, which is not good.
I would start with looking at pads and work on to aligning them onto disc (sitting flat) if the pads are flat to start with?
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
Re: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
pickerd wrote:Can't be air in line on HY RD can it!!!!
I don't see why not; it is an 'open' system, just writ small. If there is air under the diaphragm, not enough fluid or w.h.y., it can surely misbehave just like any other hydraulic system.
cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
Sorry Brucey there may be air in the system I agree. I meant there are no hydraulic lines as such as they are mech cable actuated.
Re: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
It's strange also that the rear brakes don't suffer the same problem. Although maybe not as the rear is in a triangular frame and not on the end of a lever (fork). The same may be happening but it goes unnoticed.
Re: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
I find I often get a bit of "thrumming" on the front brake of the tandem when I put new pads in. It fades away fairly quickly & I've always put it down to the pads catching the spokes of the disc slightly (they do show signs of wear slightly inside where the circle of the disc is continuous). Whatever the cause, I find it disappears fairly rapidly with brake use.
Rick.
Rick.
Former member of the Cult of the Polystyrene Head Carbuncle.
-
- Posts: 2199
- Joined: 20 May 2011, 11:23am
- Location: South Birmingham
Re: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
The "bit of copperease on the back of the pads" solution looks interesting - It's what I have done for years on cars when replacing disc pads, to avoid odd noises!
It also reminded me of an email I received back from TRP when I asked about regular maintenance - this reads.
It also reminded me of an email I received back from TRP when I asked about regular maintenance - this reads.
- "Thanks for your inquiry. You shouldn’t have to lube anything on the Spyre brake on a daily basis. As for a dab of Copper Ease on the backs of the pads, this would not hurt at all. Typically not needed but if you experience some squeal or rattling then that would be something that I could see helping"
Brompton, Condor Heritage, creaky joints and thinning white (formerly grey) hair
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !
Re: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
i get it with my HyRd's - between myself and our mechanics we've narrowed it down to sintered pads. sintered pads i get popping, organic i don't - least nowhere near as bad. We've had the same on brand new bikes and replacing the sintered pads has always significantly decreased the popping. i don't get it all the time just under heavy braking!
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
Re: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
Ok I have loads of good ideas to go at now.
Can anyone recommend some organic pads suitable for the HY RDs?
Can anyone recommend some organic pads suitable for the HY RDs?
- NATURAL ANKLING
- Posts: 13780
- Joined: 24 Oct 2012, 10:43pm
- Location: English Riviera
Re: Hydraulic Disc Brakes
Hi,
Along with the other suggestions , as said up thread "Contamination" pad / disc is worth looking at.
Along with the other suggestions , as said up thread "Contamination" pad / disc is worth looking at.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.
You'll Still Find Me At The Top Of A Hill
Please forgive the poor Grammar I blame it on my mobile and phat thinkers.