DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Discussion of the re-branding of CTC as Cycling UK.
TonyR
Posts: 5390
Joined: 31 Aug 2008, 12:51pm

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby TonyR » 29 Feb 2016, 9:15pm

Philip Benstead wrote:IMHO this was immoral


If you thought what Council did was immoral did you take the only honourable course of action open to you and resign from Council?

Thought not!

TonyR
Posts: 5390
Joined: 31 Aug 2008, 12:51pm

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby TonyR » 29 Feb 2016, 9:18pm

smuggers wrote:Not wanting to get involved in the rights & wrongs of the re-branding, I do think it's quite shocking that the majority of our club members, knew nothing about the change of name at our clubroom slideshow last Thursday.. This cant be right & some of our elder members felt let down by the CTC..


I think you need to recognise that what has happened was unlikely to be the plan of HQ but the result of the changes being leaked prematurely. Unfortunate but these things happen sometimes

User avatar
smuggers
Posts: 342
Joined: 3 Aug 2014, 6:58pm
Location: Lancashire

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby smuggers » 29 Feb 2016, 9:25pm

TonyR wrote:
smuggers wrote:Not wanting to get involved in the rights & wrongs of the re-branding, I do think it's quite shocking that the majority of our club members, knew nothing about the change of name at our clubroom slideshow last Thursday.. This cant be right & some of our elder members felt let down by the CTC..


I think you need to recognise that what has happened was unlikely to be the plan of HQ but the result of the changes being leaked prematurely. Unfortunate but these things happen sometimes


Am I right in thinking they'll be launching the new name and logo in about 1 mths time via Cycle Magazine ? Cant say I'm impressed with the new logo either, what is going to happen to the winged wheel ?
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. --H.G. Wells

AndyK
Posts: 835
Joined: 17 Aug 2007, 2:08pm

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby AndyK » 29 Feb 2016, 9:37pm

TonyR wrote:
smuggers wrote:Not wanting to get involved in the rights & wrongs of the re-branding, I do think it's quite shocking that the majority of our club members, knew nothing about the change of name at our clubroom slideshow last Thursday.. This cant be right & some of our elder members felt let down by the CTC..


I think you need to recognise that what has happened was unlikely to be the plan of HQ but the result of the changes being leaked prematurely. Unfortunate but these things happen sometimes

If by "prematurely" you mean "several months later than they should have been", then yes. Otherwise, no.

TonyR
Posts: 5390
Joined: 31 Aug 2008, 12:51pm

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby TonyR » 29 Feb 2016, 9:39pm

gaz wrote:In my opinion you are very much mistaken in your recollection because I know that you would not deliberately misrepresent the matter.

It was Motion 1 of the 2012 AGM at Sheffield that finally sealed the Charity Conversion. I wasn't there, but this isn't the first time that I've linked the ERS records for the vote which suggest the room was strongly in favour (90%) as were the majority of returned voting forms that gave directed proxy votes.

If the Chair's undirected proxy votes had been left uncast the result would have been 3978 For, 646 Against (86% in favour). If the Chair had then cast the undirected proxies against the mood of those who'd expressed an opinion the motion would have been lost. Unsurprisingly he cast them in favour.



Ah you miss the point though that the 4 people who voted against in person at the meeting should be allowed to trump the 8,000 who voted for by post :wink:

TonyR
Posts: 5390
Joined: 31 Aug 2008, 12:51pm

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby TonyR » 29 Feb 2016, 9:52pm

AndyK wrote:
TonyR wrote:
smuggers wrote:Not wanting to get involved in the rights & wrongs of the re-branding, I do think it's quite shocking that the majority of our club members, knew nothing about the change of name at our clubroom slideshow last Thursday.. This cant be right & some of our elder members felt let down by the CTC..


I think you need to recognise that what has happened was unlikely to be the plan of HQ but the result of the changes being leaked prematurely. Unfortunate but these things happen sometimes

If by "prematurely" you mean "several months later than they should have been", then yes. Otherwise, no.


What's your timeline for this then. AIUI the consultants presented the final proposals at the October 2015 meeting and the final decision to go ahead was made at the 23 January 2016 meeting where it was the major item of discussion but was too late to get into the February/March 2016 issue of Cycle so will presumably be in the April/May issue. The new logo leaked on 17 February So where do you manage to fit in "several months later than they should have been" into that timeline.

User avatar
Philip Benstead
Posts: 1147
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 7:06pm
Location: Victoria , London

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 29 Feb 2016, 9:54pm

TonyR wrote:
Philip Benstead wrote:IMHO this was immoral


If you thought what Council did was immoral did you take the only honourable course of action open to you and resign from Council?

Thought not!

The way some on here talk we would be resigning all the time . You should stand for council and see how is run. You would be surprise
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

User avatar
smuggers
Posts: 342
Joined: 3 Aug 2014, 6:58pm
Location: Lancashire

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby smuggers » 29 Feb 2016, 10:01pm

Seems to be lots of infighting within the CTC & think I'll just stay away from here for a while & ride my bike more.
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. --H.G. Wells

User avatar
RickH
Posts: 4870
Joined: 5 Mar 2012, 6:39pm
Location: Horwich, Lancs.

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby RickH » 29 Feb 2016, 10:01pm

smuggers wrote:Not wanting to get involved in the rights & wrongs of the re-branding, I do think it's quite shocking that the majority of our club members, knew nothing about the change of name at our clubroom slideshow last Thursday.. This cant be right & some of our elder members felt let down by the CTC.. Some with 40+ years of loyalty towards the CTC.. Personally I shall be watching developments & if I feel the CTC is heading in the wrong direction I will look elsewhere to meet my needs as a touring cyclist... I probably need to have a good sit down and read the reams of posts & information online.

I was forwarded an email with details on 24th that had been sent out by David Cox the previous week (week beginning 15th Feb - I don't currently have the precise date) to a CTC group I have links with. Delays in passing this on are therefore probably due to communication delays internal to the CTC group - I presume all CTC groups will have been sent the same info at the same time.

Rick.

User avatar
Philip Benstead
Posts: 1147
Joined: 13 Jan 2007, 7:06pm
Location: Victoria , London

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 29 Feb 2016, 10:14pm

RickH wrote:
smuggers wrote:Not wanting to get involved in the rights & wrongs of the re-branding, I do think it's quite shocking that the majority of our club members, knew nothing about the change of name at our clubroom slideshow last Thursday.. This cant be right & some of our elder members felt let down by the CTC.. Some with 40+ years of loyalty towards the CTC.. Personally I shall be watching developments & if I feel the CTC is heading in the wrong direction I will look elsewhere to meet my needs as a touring cyclist... I probably need to have a good sit down and read the reams of posts & information online.

I was forwarded an email with details on 24th that had been sent out by David Cox the previous week (week beginning 15th Feb - I don't currently have the precise date) to a CTC group I have links with. Delays in passing this on are therefore probably due to communication delays internal to the CTC group - I presume all CTC groups will have been sent the same info at the same time.

Rick.


CTC Rebranding Chair Statement - Philip Benstead Reply



DC = David Cox
PB = Philip Benstead

This entire process reflects very badly on the CTC it has been push though, it is part of a trend which will result in power being taken away from Councillors elected the members.

Message from the Chair: Rebranding Update

DC It has been brought to my attention that CTC member and former Councillor Philip Benstead has approached local group Secretaries and other members asking for support for a poll of the whole membership about the decision to rebrand. It is up to members whether they wish to seek a poll – the charity’s articles of association provide for a poll where 200 members wish to challenge a resolution of Council.
PB Yes that is correct

DC However, the last time we conducted a poll of the whole club, the cost of the process was approximately £14,000. In terms of what this means to our charity, that is enough to employ a staff member for over 5 months to offer full time support to Member Groups.
PB That works out has £33,000 over one year with additional add on costs comes to £66,000 per year. Is that a cast iron comments? I think not

DC Before you commit the charity to that expense, I would like to ensure you have a bit more background information.
PB How much did four lots of consultants cost when you combined the rebranding with the governance process.
What is proposed?
CTC Council at least have no background information only executive committee has any information even though the Executive committee is not a policy making body, it is exceeding it authority

DC The document I have seen refers to the proposed re-branding in rather confused terms. As set out in our earlier statement here, from our Chief Executive, Paul Tuohy, “Our charity will still legally be registered as the Cyclists’ Touring Club with its charity and company registrations unchanged. The Cyclists’ Touring Club is not being disbanded. In fact, part of the need for this change is because we hope the new brand will enhance our touring offering.
PB What evidence has been supplied to back up this statement?

DC The new name (as I’m sure many of you will now have seen) is ‘Cycling UK’ and the brand ‘we are Cycling UK’ will be adopted as a ‘trading name’ of the charity.
PB There a number of cycling related organisations that have very similar names this will cause confusion

DC We are very proud of our heritage and history, and we know that a new name and brand will really help to make our charity even more attractive to many more people.”
PB Why get rid of a name that is know all over the world, it not what you call yourself but what you do and how you market yourself.

DC By the nature of this information being leaked, our full rebranding has not yet been presented (only the new name and a new logo).
Yes, but nor have the Councillors seen the full information. This show how the council is being kept in the dark even though they are legally responsible.

DC While these both form an integral part of our new brand, they will both be used in conjunction with images and editorial in a way that conveys much more than any logo might in isolation.
PB Why can’t you use this with the existing name? In fact, CTC publicity is lackluster, we appear not to be able to publish our own rides and events in efficient manner.

DC In fact the success of any brand is about how an organisations ‘lives and breathes’ its values through the work that it does.
PB It not about imagers what counts is what we do, we do not publish our self enough, there has been no suggestion of setting up special groups similar to how the ramblers improve intake of memebers

What does this mean for Member Groups?

DC CTC Member Groups will not need to change their names, their jerseys or other aspects of their branding unless they want to. Most Member Groups have a clear identity and touring orientation that is well recognised by local club cyclists and they will be free to maintain that identity. It will continue to be possible to obtain classic kit and winged wheel badges – and we plan to develop further items drawing on the charity’s rich heritage.

PB That was not reported at the January 2016 council meeting, are the powers that be are frighten?

Was the decision endorsed by Council?

DC Yes. The Council meeting on 23 January resolved to accept the new name and design proposed by the professional team working to reflect the ‘brand essence’ approved by Council at an earlier meeting.
PB Yes but what the consultants told use was self-evidence but upon closer reading the numbers in some cases do not add up.

DC The decision came at the end of an impressively thorough process. While some Council members were initially cautious of the jargon that can surround exercises like this, there was a near-unanimous acknowledgement that the team working with us understood CTC with all its complex heritage and exciting future – and had captured our collective desire to share the joy of cycling.
PB The decision was made after I left the council

DC Only One Council member voted against the proposed rebrand, with 15 voting in favour.
PB It shows how the council has been ground into submission, I know I have the support of five serving CTC Councillors and some ex councils including an ex chair of council. They are disgusted how this process has been carried out.
Have steps been taken to protect the new brand?

DC Yes. We have conducted a robust risk-assessment, protected the new logo as a registered trade mark and taken other steps on the advice of our legal and other advisers.
PB What about the similar named cycling organisations, that will cause confusion

What does this mean for the winged wheel?

There will be many charities who will be jealous of our rich history and such iconic assets like our winged wheel, and rightly so. We will continue to promote our heritage as a very important part of our wider brand, which will include continuing to use the winged wheel.

Who is Philip Benstead?

Philip Benstead is a long-standing CTC member, volunteer and former Council member. He left Council with effect from 1 January this year, after a contested election in the South East region.

DC We are particularly disappointed that Philip has chosen to take this action because:
PB I have the support of many current Councillors

DC (I) At the CTC Council meeting in January 2014 Philip seconded the motion to go ahead with the work on the rebranding, specifically to: ‘Agree in principle to a trading name change … ‘;
PB Yes in principal but the case has not been made I want something like “CTC …………..”

DC (ii) As a former member of CTC Council Philip should understand that members of Council are obliged to accept collective responsibility, and that responsibility continues to apply in relation to decisions made while he was a trustee;
PB The decision was made after I left the council
DC (iii) Despite the fact that he was until the end of last year a Council member, Philip chose not to raise his concerns about the decision with Council or with the National Office team.
PB I express my view on this and other matters concerning governance. I was either ignored ridiculed by the chair or not recorded in the minutes even when pointed out to correct the minutes these were reject even when submitted by other Councillors.
What next?

We will be officially launching our new name and brand in April, through Cycle magazine, our online communications channels and via the media. We will also be back in touch with you before then to provide you with new resources and guidance so that you can maximise this opportunity to raise the profile of [the charity and] your group locally, to help to attract new members and to gain local media interest.

If you have any questions, please contact the communications team on 01483 238 315.

David Cox
Chair, CTC Council
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

Bicycler
Posts: 3400
Joined: 4 Dec 2013, 3:33pm

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Bicycler » 29 Feb 2016, 10:16pm

smuggers wrote:Seems to be lots of infighting within the CTC & think I'll just stay away from here for a while & ride my bike more.

Please stick with the forum, it's generally not this confrontational. I'm sure you appreciate that there are a lot of very strong feelings and opinions on this particular subject.

User avatar
gaz
Posts: 13904
Joined: 9 Mar 2007, 12:09pm
Location: Kent, car park of England

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 29 Feb 2016, 10:18pm

TonyR wrote:Ah you miss the point though that the 4 people who voted against in person at the meeting should be allowed to trump the 8,000 who voted for by post :wink:

Back in the day (well 1979) to win a motion and decide club policy you just had to organise a coach party to fill the room with supporters.

Some may feel democracy died with postal ballots and on-line voting :wink: .
2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

User avatar
gaz
Posts: 13904
Joined: 9 Mar 2007, 12:09pm
Location: Kent, car park of England

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 29 Feb 2016, 10:24pm

Philip Benstead wrote:... CTC Rebranding Chair Statement - Philip Benstead Reply ...

Please refer to my previous response.
2020 : To redundancy ... and beyond!

AndyK
Posts: 835
Joined: 17 Aug 2007, 2:08pm

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby AndyK » 29 Feb 2016, 10:27pm

TonyR wrote:
AndyK wrote:
TonyR wrote:
I think you need to recognise that what has happened was unlikely to be the plan of HQ but the result of the changes being leaked prematurely. Unfortunate but these things happen sometimes

If by "prematurely" you mean "several months later than they should have been", then yes. Otherwise, no.


What's your timeline for this then. AIUI the consultants presented the final proposals at the October 2015 meeting and the final decision to go ahead was made at the 23 January 2016 meeting where it was the major item of discussion but was too late to get into the February/March 2016 issue of Cycle so will presumably be in the April/May issue. The new logo leaked on 17 February So where do you manage to fit in "several months later than they should have been" into that timeline.


I would have expected some wider consultation on the preliminary proposals, which were presumably worked through prior to October. Yes, many people knew a rebrand was being considered. Those who cared were doubtless sitting patiently expecting to be shown the options and consulted on them, because that's what happens in a membership organisation. Instead the planned timescale was designed to make sure it was a foregone conclusion, revealed too late for anyone outside of Council to object to the final choice or even ask what the alternatives were.

Well, you did ask.

I'm not bothered about a rebrand myself, but the new logo is embarrassingly bad - though not as bad as that awful winged wheel. [ducks below parapet]

TonyR
Posts: 5390
Joined: 31 Aug 2008, 12:51pm

Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby TonyR » 1 Mar 2016, 5:29am

AndyK wrote:I would have expected some wider consultation on the preliminary proposals, which were presumably worked through prior to October.


Read the minutes of the October meeting. Councillors (including PB) voted unanimously for the rebrand and

"The next stage is for Campfire to develop the creative brief and present back to the Leadership team."

Yes, many people knew a rebrand was being considered. Those who cared were doubtless sitting patiently expecting to be shown the options and consulted on them, because that's what happens in a membership organisation.


Were the membership ever consulted on previous rebrands? Do other organisations consult? Vide
https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/PDF/Bran ... 202013.pdf
https://staging.scouts.org.uk/documents ... 015%20.pdf

AFAIK the CTC has followed the standard approach of consulting with a representative sample of members in developing the new brand but not on the final decision.

Instead the planned timescale was designed to make sure it was a foregone conclusion, revealed too late for anyone outside of Council to object to the final choice or even ask what the alternatives were.


Brand changes are nearly always controversial exercises and consultation exercises are almost always a waste of time because most people don't understand branding and its purposes, instead seeing it as many here are doing, as just a logo. AIUI though the consultants did consult with a representative sample of the membership in developing the proposals