DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Discussion of the re-branding of CTC as Cycling UK.
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gaz
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 5 Mar 2016, 5:15pm

Philip Benstead wrote:... This article can be found on LinkedIn and was written by Shivaji Shivapadasundaram who is the CTC Honorary Consulting Solicitor
It was not written nor commissioned nor endorsed by the CTC, it council or members of its council and does not represent their view or policy. ...

+1.

Philip Benstead wrote:... IMHO you can see how some could interpret this as a way to reduce CTC members control / Influence of the CTC by encouraging CTC Member groups to become affiliates groups.
It should be noted I understand there are 186 local member groups plus informal groups, whilst there is over 800 affiliate groups. ...

Not only was the article neither commissioned nor endorsed by CTC, it relates to federated charity structures. CTC does not have a federated charity structure. I cannot see how anyone could reasonably interpret this as a way to reduce members control / influence.

Philip Benstead wrote:IMHO The writing on the wall for local groups, make them become affiliate groups so CTC members lose control and the Council will become self-appointed Oligarchy

At the risk of repeating myself MGs do not vote at AGMs, take part in Polls of the Whole Club or exercise any other democratic control over Council. It is individual members who vote. Neither winding up an MG or starting an AG has any effect on an individual CTC member's democratic rights.
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Philip Benstead
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 5 Mar 2016, 5:31pm

TonyR wrote:
Steady rider wrote:Shivaji Shiva
Charity Lawyer - Anthony Collins Solicitors

Yes you are right, the CTC bit was added in on purpose. I suppose readers of this site would want to know his connection with the CTC but the link provided does not include the CTC.


That's fine and if you wanted to do that transparently you would add a comment in the pre-amble to note that he is also the CTC Honorary Solicitor. What you don't do is change it so that it looks like it was part of the original article. That is just deliberately misleading and making it look like he wrote the article in his capacity with the CTC.


I hope these notes bring some clarity to my position.

If you would like to discuss my position, please contact me on 0794 980 16978 or 020 7630 0475
I have stated many time some on here should seek election to CTC Council, but they refuse on the grounds they are not qualified. But these same people continually criticize people would have been on council and know what is going on in their name. I am NOT knowing trying to mislead or misrepresent the facts. PLEASE DO NOT KEEP SAYING I AM

Note that the minutes do not reflect what was said at any CTC meeting. If some of you went to the Facebook “where the CTC Should be going “You would see that Hilary Reid is vocal critic of the poor quality of the minute and that she has submitted motion to the agm on the subject.
I was in favour of the CTC protect a relevant image to the potential new and current members. The name change that was suggested was The National Cycling Association but I had suggested but not record in the minutes that it would be a good idea that the letters CTC should be kept and have a strapline that told what we do.

As time moved on and with a change of CEO my view begin to change. With the CEO stated aim said directly to me face to face that he wishes to get rid of the entire council and get new smaller council. At that meeting I thought he had a similar meeting with all of the other councillor, I then realized that he only had meeting with a few. I then thought why me, two reason came to mind, the first he considers me important, I reject that out of hand, the second was I was trouble make or obstacle to his plan, well hole in one.
So I change my mind to any proposed name change because it was a slippery slope to the governance debate and taking control from CTC members.
The actual vote was taken when I was no longer on council.
Note the meaning of “agreeing in principal”, that is the meaning I took it to mean
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/in%20principle in principle
As a CTC council and as human being I reserve the right to change my mind.
In principle describes a basic idea. If your mother supports your travel plans in principle, she likes the idea of you getting out and seeing the world — though this could change when she sees the cost of the trip.
If you agree to something in principle, it means you're in favour of it based on what you know so far — the principle, or the idea, seems good to you. For example, while a lot of people support the idea of a new garbage dump in principle, few of them are happy to learn that it will be built near their homes.

PJB say "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

Changing Your Mind

What's the greatest barrier to changing one's mind?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ha ... -your-mind
WHAT DID I VOTE FOR?
Council minutes can be found here
http://www.ctc.org.uk/sites/default/fil ... inutes.pdf

Motion:
Agree in principle to a trading name change. Take the necessary action to register and protect the name of National Cycling Association. To set up a new working group to carry out further work to look at the implementation and wider brand issues as well as any name change. To bring a report back to Council in April for approval.
Proposed by: Barry Flood Seconded by: Philip Benstead
Vote of above Motion:
In favour = 10 Against = 3 Abstained = 2 Motion Carried
The report to Council should include the total cost of rebranding and transitional costs, with a fully worked up raft of initiatives.
Gwenda Owen made an observation being new to Council - saying that Council should make the decision, are we not losing sight of why we are doing this.
Jaki Lowe reiterated that she wouldn't want to start the work again as a huge amount of work has already taken place. Arthur Spurr commented that more clarity was needed.

ALSO NOTE THIS
IT SEEMS THAT DAVID COX CHANGE HIS MIND AS WELL.
David Cox said he was taken by comments from Gwenda Owen and Jaki Lowe and would feel uncomfortable without taking it to the Membership without more consensus.


Jaki Lowe confirmed the remit of the new group must be clear and agreed to draft the ‘Terms of Reference’ for the group. Attached are the draft remit word read out by Jaki at the meeting. Councillors wanting to be involved in the new group and those on the existing group and want to continue should email Jaki by Friday 24/1/14.
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

ElCampesino
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby ElCampesino » 5 Mar 2016, 9:12pm

So, I assume that the roll-out of the new brand is on hold until the full membership poll has been conducted.

Surely, there's no point in spending any more time and money on the proposed re-branding until this issue has been resolved.

EC

TonyR
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby TonyR » 5 Mar 2016, 9:23pm

Philip Benstead wrote:I am NOT knowing trying to mislead or misrepresent the facts. PLEASE DO NOT KEEP SAYING I AM


Well stop doing it then and I won't have to. So far you've misrepresented the AGM voting on the charity conversion, you doctored the blog on federated charities to make it look like it was written by the CTC when it wasn't and now it turns out you were party to the Council decision two years ago that any name and branding change would be decided by Council and not the membership.

Note that the minutes do not reflect what was said at any CTC meeting.


The minutes are the official record of the meeting and the legal evidence of the decisions that were made (Companies Act 2006 s249). If they do not reflect what was said then you as a Councillor are culpable in allowing them to be signed as a true record when they weren't

TonyR
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby TonyR » 5 Mar 2016, 9:35pm

ElCampesino wrote:So, I assume that the roll-out of the new brand is on hold until the full membership poll has been conducted.

Surely, there's no point in spending any more time and money on the proposed re-branding until this issue has been resolved.


At this stage the money will have mostly all be spent anyway and now we're going to waste another £14k+ on PB trying to reverse a Council decision he supported two years ago and chose to say nothing about until now.

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gaz
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 5 Mar 2016, 9:47pm

ElCampesino wrote:So, I assume that the roll-out of the new brand is on hold until the full membership poll has been conducted. ...


Procedurally under Article 11:
11.4 Provided always that any action taken upon such resolution prior to receipt of such petition shall be valid.

I don't know how that should be interpreted. Council have approved the new brand and action has been taken to introduce this in Cycle, probably also on the website and on stationery. There will be press releases already issued with an "embargo" date, which at best would be difficult to recall and dependent upon the actions of third parties.

Cycle has a publication deadline and if this had passed by the time of receipt then by any reasonable measure the action taken was prior to receipt, likewise stationery ordered. Changes on the website, in this push button electronic age could/should they be put on hold?

Glad I'm not on Council :wink: .
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Psamathe
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Psamathe » 6 Mar 2016, 12:10am

TonyR wrote:
ElCampesino wrote:So, I assume that the roll-out of the new brand is on hold until the full membership poll has been conducted.

Surely, there's no point in spending any more time and money on the proposed re-branding until this issue has been resolved.


At this stage the money will have mostly all be spent anyway and now we're going to waste another £14k+ on PB trying to reverse a Council decision he supported two years ago and chose to say nothing about until now.

Actually I think there have been quite a few members asking for the poll and those signatures appeared in what I thought was a surprisingly short time (I think Philip said he had over 2300 signatures asking for a poll of the membership).

Ian

TonyR
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby TonyR » 6 Mar 2016, 3:52am

Psamathe wrote:Actually I think there have been quite a few members asking for the poll and those signatures appeared in what I thought was a surprisingly short time (I think Philip said he had over 2300 signatures asking for a poll of the membership).


There may be and if any one of them had organised the petition, it would have been different. But they didn't. PB organised the petition and soliticited signatures for it. And PBs petition is basically objecting to Council having an authority that PB gave Council two years ago. Since then he has sat through countless Council meetings and discussions on the rebranding and failed to say anything and even seconded the principle of changing the name. Now he is costing the CTC a lot of money sending in complaints about his failure to get re-elected to Council, alleged failures of Governance, a petition against Council exercising a power he has given them etc. It all sounds like vexatious actions taken by someone aggrieved at not getting re-elected rather than arising from a genuine disagreement with the rebranding and name change exercise in which they participated over the past two and a bit years.

I would not be surprised to see two responses to this from Council. The first would be an action under section 4.5 of the Mem & Arts. The second would be a legal opinion that the powers to make the decision were given to Council by Councillors over two years ago. If Councillors or members objected to that decision they needed to have lodged the objection as Councillors within 28 days of the Council meeting making that decision (Article 7.3) or for a request on that decision to be put to a poll, within three months of the resolution (Article 11.2). Both of those have now timed out and Council is now just exercising the powers it has been irrevocably given by a valid decision of Council (including PB). To accept otherwise would give members the powers to overturn decisions that had already been made by Council years ago and after considerable expenditure had since been incurred.

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Philip Benstead
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 6 Mar 2016, 8:10am

Psamathe wrote:
TonyR wrote:
ElCampesino wrote:So, I assume that the roll-out of the new brand is on hold until the full membership poll has been conducted.

Surely, there's no point in spending any more time and money on the proposed re-branding until this issue has been resolved.


At this stage the money will have mostly all be spent anyway and now we're going to waste another £14k+ on PB trying to reverse a Council decision he supported two years ago and chose to say nothing about until now.

Actually I think there have been quite a few members asking for the poll and those signatures appeared in what I thought was a surprisingly short time (I think Philip said he had over 2300 signatures asking for a poll of the membership).

Ian
it is 392 sent in but more still coming.
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

Vorpal
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Vorpal » 6 Mar 2016, 8:21am

TonyR wrote:There may be and if any one of them had organised the petition, it would have been different. But they didn't. PB organised the petition and soliticited signatures for it. And PBs petition is basically objecting to Council having an authority that PB gave Council two years ago. Since then he has sat through countless Council meetings and discussions on the rebranding and failed to say anything and even seconded the principle of changing the name. Now he is costing the CTC a lot of money sending in complaints about his failure to get re-elected to Council, alleged failures of Governance, a petition against Council exercising a power he has given them etc. It all sounds like vexatious actions taken by someone aggrieved at not getting re-elected rather than arising from a genuine disagreement with the rebranding and name change exercise in which they participated over the past two and a bit years.

I would not be surprised to see two responses to this from Council. The first would be an action under section 4.5 of the Mem & Arts. The second would be a legal opinion that the powers to make the decision were given to Council by Councillors over two years ago. If Councillors or members objected to that decision they needed to have lodged the objection as Councillors within 28 days of the Council meeting making that decision (Article 7.3) or for a request on that decision to be put to a poll, within three months of the resolution (Article 11.2). Both of those have now timed out and Council is now just exercising the powers it has been irrevocably given by a valid decision of Council (including PB). To accept otherwise would give members the powers to overturn decisions that had already been made by Council years ago and after considerable expenditure had since been incurred.

While you have some good points about Philip being the person to organise the petition, I don't believe that Council minutes will show all of the objections, and discussions that occur. In general, when Philip has objected to something, the minutes will only have shown that there was discussion, and what the decision was, unless there are some specific points that require further action or investigation.

I suspect that the result of this will be self-defeating. Whatever the outcome is, I'm sure that the revised governance won't include the ability to demand a poll of members.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

merseymouth
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby merseymouth » 6 Mar 2016, 9:11am

Hello there, I don't know either Philip Benstead or Tony R, so no axe being ground or bias applied!
But sadly this has become a little bit OTT !
There is an issue of importance to members, so unless you have evidence that the minutes for relevant meetings record a full and accurate account don't use them as irrefutable proof, merely edited highlights, written by a fallible human being!
If a finger needs pointing as to why the so called "CTC" brand is not readily identified it should be at the actual badge as is has been messed about with over the years!
I actually collect cycling club badges, with many CTC ones in my collection.
The wording, or lack of wording is at the root, when did the words "Cyclist's Touring Club" last appear on our badge?
When just initials are relied upon they inevitably leave room for error.
So bring back wording, then "Cyclist's Touring Club" will mean exactly what it says on the badge! TTFN MM

Psamathe
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Psamathe » 6 Mar 2016, 9:49am

TonyR wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Actually I think there have been quite a few members asking for the poll and those signatures appeared in what I thought was a surprisingly short time (I think Philip said he had over 2300 signatures asking for a poll of the membership).


There may be and if any one of them had organised the petition, it would have been different. But they didn't. PB organised the petition and soliticited signatures for it. And PBs petition is basically objecting to Council having an authority that PB gave Council two years ago....

I must have misread it then because I thought the petition said about polling the membership about the name/branding selected.

Ian

TonyR
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby TonyR » 6 Mar 2016, 2:46pm

Psamathe wrote:
TonyR wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Actually I think there have been quite a few members asking for the poll and those signatures appeared in what I thought was a surprisingly short time (I think Philip said he had over 2300 signatures asking for a poll of the membership).


There may be and if any one of them had organised the petition, it would have been different. But they didn't. PB organised the petition and soliticited signatures for it. And PBs petition is basically objecting to Council having an authority that PB gave Council two years ago....

I must have misread it then because I thought the petition said about polling the membership about the name/branding selected.

Ian


Yes, but two years ago PB supported the decision, subsequently published in Cycle, that they would be looking at a change of name and branding and that the final decision would be made by Council. Two years later with zip said in between, the objection organised by PB is because a decision has been made by Council.

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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Psamathe » 6 Mar 2016, 4:47pm

TonyR wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
TonyR wrote:...
There may be and if any one of them had organised the petition, it would have been different. But they didn't. PB organised the petition and soliticited signatures for it. And PBs petition is basically objecting to Council having an authority that PB gave Council two years ago....

I must have misread it then because I thought the petition said about polling the membership about the name/branding selected.

Ian


Yes, but two years ago PB supported the decision, subsequently published in Cycle, that they would be looking at a change of name and branding and that the final decision would be made by Council. Two years later with zip said in between, the objection organised by PB is because a decision has been made by Council.

I can't see where we get to being critical of the petition because of something Philip may or may not have done that may or may not have been recorded in documents available to you. I can't quite understand all the aggression towards Philip when all he has done is to organise a petition that clearly a lot of members seem to want to sign ("a lot of members" in terms of the numbers of members who I'm guessing will be aware of the petition).

Ian

TonyR
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby TonyR » 6 Mar 2016, 8:43pm

Psamathe wrote:I can't see where we get to being critical of the petition because of something Philip may or may not have done that may or may not have been recorded in documents available to you.


Not available to me. Available to everyone since it was published in the Dec 2013 issue of Cycle. Top of p2 of http://www.ctc.org.uk/sites/default/fil ... 401005.pdf




I can't quite understand all the aggression towards Philip when all he has done is to organise a petition that clearly a lot of members seem to want to sign ("a lot of members" in terms of the numbers of members who I'm guessing will be aware of the petition).


Because he's participated in the whole rebranding exercise as a Councillor for two years and now because he wasn't re-elected has taken it on himself to try to overturn those two years work by the CTC.

Yes, a number of people have signed the petition after he has lobbied member groups to sign it as well as running a Facebook campaign. Nobody has yet heard the CTC proposals.
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