DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Discussion of the re-branding of CTC as Cycling UK.
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gaz
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 12 Mar 2016, 8:20pm

Philip Benstead wrote:... As stated elsewhere, there could be more than one course of action or inaction that could or may fullfill the aim and objective.

In this case Council spent almost two and a half years on member and external consultation, reflecting and considering the appropriate course of action and decided on the rebrand. Council has examined possible courses of action or inaction and determined that the rebrand is in the best interests of the charity.

The petition has received the required number of signatures. A Poll of the Whole Club on the matter will now take place. I will not prejudge the outcome of the Poll.
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Labrat
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Labrat » 12 Mar 2016, 8:22pm

Philip Benstead wrote:As stated elsewhere, there could be more than one course of action or inaction that could or may fullfill the aim and objective.


Everyone knows that theres more than one way to skin a cat, the issue is whether the rebranding (as one of the possible ways of skinning the cat) works against or undermines any of the clubs formal objectives.

If it doesn't, then [I personally] don't believe you have either the right or moral authority to launch the type of attack that you have against either the club, or any of the individuals involved.

I fully support your right to bring about a poll of the club, as per the rules, I don't think you have gone around it professionally, responsibly, or reasonably, and I think the deliberate over personalisation and abuse, along with accusations of all sorts against staff and officials (possibly in a fit of pique at not getting your own way or not being reelected) have been thoroughly out of order and shameful, and I hope that other members of the club see that and vote against your proposal accordingly.

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Philip Benstead
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 12 Mar 2016, 8:26pm

Labrat wrote:
Philip Benstead wrote:As stated elsewhere, there could be more than one course of action or inaction that could or may fullfill the aim and objective.


Everyone knows that theres more than one way to skin a cat, the issue is whether the rebranding (as one of the possible ways of skinning the cat) works against or undermines any of the clubs formal objectives.

If it doesn't, then [I personally] don't believe you have either the right or moral authority to launch the type of attack that you have against either the club, or any of the individuals involved.

I fully support your right to bring about a poll of the club, as per the rules, I don't think you have gone around it professionally, responsibly, or reasonably, and I think the deliberate over personalisation and abuse, along with accusations of all sorts against staff and officials (possibly in a fit of pique at not getting your own way or not being reelected) have been thoroughly out of order and shameful, and I hope that other members of the club see that and vote against your proposal accordingly.
he without sin shall cast the first stone
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
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Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
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gaz
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 12 Mar 2016, 8:35pm

Philip Benstead wrote:do you mean asking their members to leave a legacy to the ctc. My contention is that ctc is no longer interested in local members group I have been told by councillors the CEO as very limited contact with bodies outside London

I made no reference to legacies and whilst I am aware of the "begging letter" threads I don't see any immediate relevance of legacies to the role of subsidary companies in CTC's structure.

The only thing I am aware of within CTC's structure that may be a legacy issue (bad pun, sorry :wink: ) is that of legacies left to the CTC Charitable Trust, there was some broad advise from National Office at the time of the charity conversion.
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gaz
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 12 Mar 2016, 8:47pm

Labrat wrote:I fully support your right to bring about a poll of the club, as per the rules, ...

+1. However the decision is not about personalities. I hope that members will consider the cases that will be put forward and vote in the way they feel best serves the interests of the charity.
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Psamathe
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Psamathe » 12 Mar 2016, 8:52pm

gaz wrote:
Philip Benstead wrote:... As stated elsewhere, there could be more than one course of action or inaction that could or may fullfill the aim and objective.

In this case Council spent almost two and a half years on member and external consultation, reflecting and considering the appropriate course of action and decided on the rebrand. Council has examined possible courses of action or inaction and determined that the rebrand is in the best interests of the charity.
...

Maybe they should have spent 2½ years spending money and campaigning for cyclists and cycling ?

For example, they had lots of great announcements about how they persuaded EuroStar(?) to drop they "box your bikes". Cynics were cynical but CTC had presented their great success. Short time later the truth emerges about "limitations" and people are again asking how small the boxes are and do they have to remove pedals, wheels, etc. and CTC is nowhere to be seen as they are focusing on a re-branding.

Ian

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Philip Benstead
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 12 Mar 2016, 8:53pm

gaz wrote:
Labrat wrote:I fully support your right to bring about a poll of the club, as per the rules, ...

+1. However the decision is not about personalities. I hope that members will consider the cases that will be put forward and vote in the way they feel best serves the interests of the charity.

So members do not count then. If they do not count why should anybody join because most people think what is in it for me. And before anybody say I join for the greater good why is so many members leave the ctc each year?
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

Psamathe
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Psamathe » 12 Mar 2016, 8:56pm

gaz wrote:
Labrat wrote:I fully support your right to bring about a poll of the club, as per the rules, ...

+1. However the decision is not about personalities. I hope that members will consider the cases that will be put forward and vote in the way they feel best serves the interests of the charity.

Whatever the outcome I do think the Councillors need to look at the capabilities of the management. We saw a complete mess when they gave CJ the push (something they should still be embarrassed about). And now the re-branding is going the same way. If they are so desperate to change they need somebody who is capable of change management either consulting or on staff - because things are not being handled well (I certainly would not tolerate things like this happening an companies I was a director of).

Ian

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gaz
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 12 Mar 2016, 9:23pm

Philip Benstead wrote:
gaz wrote:
Labrat wrote:I fully support your right to bring about a poll of the club, as per the rules, ...

+1. However the decision is not about personalities. I hope that members will consider the cases that will be put forward and vote in the way they feel best serves the interests of the charity.

So members do not count then.

That seems an odd conclusion to draw from the statement you've quoted.
Philip Benstead wrote:If they do not count why should anybody join because most people think what is in it for me. And before anybody say I join for the greater good why is so many members leave the ctc each year?

For me when I joined it was on the basis of "what's in it for me", that and subsequent renewals have been a value for money decision. So long as I feel the benefits represent value for money I'll renew my membership. The VFM equation is different for everyone and "for the greater good" will be of varying importance to individual members.
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Steady rider
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Steady rider » 12 Mar 2016, 9:26pm

It seems some misunderstanding about what is meant is occurring.

The re - branding is an issue that could clearly have divided views. In 2.5 years an AGM motion could have been put to support a name change. Council failed to ask for overall support.
The name change 'Cycling UK' does not imply a 'club', more an organisation, no direct connection in the name to a cycling club, that many members of the CTC have come from.

The CTC has a direct history from 1878, with the CTC name being used from 1883. Using 'Cycling UK' without CTC may be partially misleading as the CTC will still be the registration owners and charity that the proposed name does not disclose or imply.

In addition to the re-brand other concerns have been mentioned about elections and how CTC Councillors may be selected and Governance issues. A range of issues not taken to the AGM for approval, if any are to be included in the 2016 AGM, I do not know.

Introducing a brand name that causes a proportion of the existing membership to have concerns is not really in the best interests of the club. Did the CTC establish the proportion that could be concerned? I can see that good intentions and unexpected consequences may both occur.

atoz
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby atoz » 12 Mar 2016, 10:38pm

I think at this point we may make a comparison with another organisation.

Once upon a time there was a political party (no prizes for guessing which one) who decided they needed a "brand refresh"- acquiring a TV friendly young leader with nice white teeth to match. Well, we all know how that one worked out. It was noticeable that membership fell considerably when it was clear by actions when in office what the consequences of the rebranding proved to be.

Strange how that particular party seems to want to get back to it's roots- whether you agree with those roots or not, it's certainly instructive. And quel surpise, membership has gone up dramatically. Again, the potential consequences are controversial. It's just that CTC HQ seems to assume that the further we are away from our roots the more successful CTC will be. The York Rally episode was especially instructive.

I have been a CTC member for over 30 years, and I have always found it a "broad church" or in the modern argot, "inclusive". I wonder how inclusive and (importantly) accountable CTC is now, with this overemphasis on marketing type. The danger is that HQ seems to prefer staring at it's own derriere rather than the important business of campaigining for our interests. At this rate, British Cycling will clean up..

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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 12 Mar 2016, 10:46pm

atoz wrote:I think at this point we may make a comparison with another organisation.

Once upon a time there was a political party (no prizes for guessing which one) who decided they needed a "brand refresh"- acquiring a TV friendly young leader with nice white teeth to match. Well, we all know how that one worked out. It was noticeable that membership fell considerably when it was clear by actions when in office what the consequences of the rebranding proved to be.

Strange how that particular party seems to want to get back to it's roots- whether you agree with those roots or not, it's certainly instructive. And quel surpise, membership has gone up dramatically. Again, the potential consequences are controversial. It's just that CTC HQ seems to assume that the further we are away from our roots the more successful CTC will be. The York Rally episode was especially instructive.

I have been a CTC member for over 30 years, and I have always found it a "broad church" or in the modern argot, "inclusive". I wonder how inclusive and (importantly) accountable CTC is now, with this overemphasis on marketing type. The danger is that HQ seems to prefer staring at it's own derriere rather than the important business of campaigining for our interests. At this rate, British Cycling will clean up..
being a member of said party I agree
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Philip Benstead » 12 Mar 2016, 11:07pm

I just realized of the existing ctc councillors who were on the committee that came up with governance proposals the chair and deputy and one councillor works for the nhs while the CEO had worked for nhs in the past . Is there any correlation here. I also note there are only one ctc councillors with commercial business experience . Can we draw any conclusions
Philip Benstead | CTC London and FORMER CTC Councillor SE
| 0794-980-1698 | philipbenstead1@gmail.com |
Organizing events and representing cyclist in southeast since 1988
Cycle Ride? http://www.meetup.com/socialcycling4u/
Bikeability Instructor/Mechanic

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gaz
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby gaz » 13 Mar 2016, 12:20am

The conclusion that I reach is that, at least for now, it is time to sign off from the debate rather than post my latest diatribe. Re-posting my views and finding holes to pick in others arguments are more likely to wind them up than change their minds, or help newcomers to formulate their decisions.

May I just add that at no time have I felt under any pressure to withdraw from the debate, I'm just tired of it. There's every chance I'll be back once April/May Cycle is published or the next set of Council minutes or in due course the Poll itself.

In the meantime in the unlikely event that I should encounter anyone here in the real world at the side of the road with a puncture, I'll be sure to stop and offer to help.

Happy cycling to all.
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Bicycler
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Re: DEMAND FOR A POLL OF THE WHOLE CLUB

Postby Bicycler » 13 Mar 2016, 12:55am

Labrat wrote:Everyone knows that theres more than one way to skin a cat, the issue is whether the rebranding (as one of the possible ways of skinning the cat) works against or undermines any of the clubs formal objectives.

If it doesn't, then [I personally] don't believe you have either the right or moral authority to launch the type of attack that you have against either the club, or any of the individuals involved.

Well, no. He has the right and moral authority to make the kind of accusations that he has done if he has confidence in their truth. I don't know anything about the truth or otherwise of his claims so I can't comment on that. Such accusations are, in any case, a separate issue to the main issue of the rebranding. As you acknowledge it is the right of members to petition for a poll and something as central as our identity hardly seems (to me) like an unfit matter on which to petition.

I fully support your right to bring about a poll of the club, as per the rules, I don't think you have gone around it professionally, responsibly, or reasonably, and I think the deliberate over personalisation and abuse, along with accusations of all sorts against staff and officials (possibly in a fit of pique at not getting your own way or not being reelected) have been thoroughly out of order and shameful, and I hope that other members of the club see that and vote against your proposal accordingly

There's some argumentum ad hominem here. Philip's motives in calling for a poll are irrelevant to the poll itself; they are not reasons to vote for or against the rebrand.