English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Separate forum to permit easy exclusion when searching for serious information !
User avatar
kylecycler
Posts: 1378
Joined: 12 Aug 2013, 4:09pm
Location: Kyle, Ayrshire

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by kylecycler »

Cowsham wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 1:37pm The difference is, if I heard Murray Walker coming out with loti I'd know it was a joke. 'Sandwich' not so sure.
It was frequently discussed at the time, mainly because everybody was bored stiff watching Lotus winning just about every race that year, especially since the two drivers weren't allowed to race each other (Peterson's contract was as Andretti's #2 and he honoured that, even though he could most likely have overtaken and won at least some of the races). Fairly sure Murray never discussed whether it was Lotuses or Loti, James Hunt might have but that would just have been him being whimsical (it was more his style), but at least it would have given them something to talk about!
User avatar
kylecycler
Posts: 1378
Joined: 12 Aug 2013, 4:09pm
Location: Kyle, Ayrshire

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by kylecycler »

Jdsk wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 1:34pm
kylecycler wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 1:00pmThere's never been a consensus as to whether the plural of Lotus, as in Lotus cars - like back in 1978 when Mario Andretti and Ronnie Peterson were running 1-2 in a Grand Prix, as they frequently did that year - is Lotuses or Loti (then again, the plural of consensus is definitely consensuses!).
There was a statement from the factory... the plural is Lotus.

But the origin of the name remains in dispute...

Jonathan

Image
That's quite a find! :lol:

Don't know about the origin of the name, but the reason a lot of Lotus (come on, that's not the plural - no way! :D) - Elite, Elan, Elise, Eclat, etc. - begin with the letters 'El' derives from the Lotus Eleven racing sportscar away back in 1956, which was Lotus' (Lotus's?!) 'breakthrough' model in racing.

I know elan means what it means, but I've sometimes wondered if the Spa Elan would be the Spa Elan if it wasn't for that^!

That press release must be from the 2010s (it refers to the driver Heikki Kovalainen in the small print) by which time Lotus was under different ownership from Colin Chapman's time but I think the 'controversy' (not that it ever really was) started back in '78.
Jdsk
Posts: 24637
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

kylecycler wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 3:03pm
Jdsk wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 1:34pm
kylecycler wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 1:00pmThere's never been a consensus as to whether the plural of Lotus, as in Lotus cars - like back in 1978 when Mario Andretti and Ronnie Peterson were running 1-2 in a Grand Prix, as they frequently did that year - is Lotuses or Loti (then again, the plural of consensus is definitely consensuses!).
There was a statement from the factory... the plural is Lotus.

But the origin of the name remains in dispute...Image
That press release must be from the 2010s (it refers to the driver Heikki Kovalainen in the small print) by which time Lotus was under different ownership from Colin Chapman's time but I think the 'controversy' (not that it ever really was) started back in '78.
... have another look at the products mentioned! : - )

June 1969.

Jonathan

PS: I'll come back on the etymology of no-one else does...
mattheus
Posts: 5044
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by mattheus »

kylecycler wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 3:03pm
Don't know about the origin of the name, but the reason a lot of Lotus (come on, that's not the plural - no way! :D) - Elite, Elan, Elise, Eclat, etc. - begin with the letters 'El' derives from the Lotus Eleven racing sportscar away back in 1956, which was Lotus' (Lotus's?!) 'breakthrough' model in racing.

I know elan means what it means, but I've sometimes wondered if the Spa Elan would be the Spa Elan if it wasn't for that^!

That press release must be from the 2010s (it refers to the driver Heikki Kovalainen in the small print) by which time Lotus was under different ownership from Colin Chapman's time but I think the 'controversy' (not that it ever really was) started back in '78.
"Elise" was a girl's name, I think - the MD's niece possibly? (Bit like the Elise in "Fur Elise" the top chart hit.)

Elan is of course named after the Elan Valley in Wales - another of Britains top beauties.
Jdsk
Posts: 24637
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

mattheus wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 3:11pm"Elise" was a girl's name, I think - the MD's niece possibly?
Chair's granddaughter.

Jonathan
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by thirdcrank »

She was the subject of a song but it's no longer ethical Für Elise
User avatar
kylecycler
Posts: 1378
Joined: 12 Aug 2013, 4:09pm
Location: Kyle, Ayrshire

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by kylecycler »

Jdsk wrote: 18 Mar 2022, 3:09pm ... have another look at the products mentioned! : - )

June 1969.

Jonathan

PS: I'll come back on the etymology of no-one else does...
Oh, right - didn't read through it - so, nothing new under the sun, then! :D It must have been a photocopy of an old 'edict'.

Tbh, mind you (you'll just have to take my word for this), when Ford introduced the Cosworth DFV engine in 1967, Jim Clark and Graham Hill tended to qualify 1st and 2nd, as they did at Zandvoort for the Dutch Grand Prix that year, the engine's first race, but I couldn't find a photo of them running 1-2 (Hill's Lotus broke in the race), so I went for Andretti/Peterson instead. Anyway, maybe 1967 was when the Loti/Lotuses question first arose (or not).

And did anyone spot my not-so-deliberate mistake concerning Lotus names beginning with 'El' - Eclat... :oops: So maybe it was just the letter 'e'. Or not, even.

mattheus - I didn't know there was an Elan valley in Wales (which I know will make me sound pig-ignorant to anyone who's Welsh!) but with Spa's saddles being called after Yorkshire dales you wonder if there might be some connection there (or not). I just meant what the word elan means, though - quite appropriate for that style of bike.

And I knew the Elise was called after someone's daughter, but I think it was still partly because it began with the letter 'e' (but not necessarily 'el'!).
User avatar
kylecycler
Posts: 1378
Joined: 12 Aug 2013, 4:09pm
Location: Kyle, Ayrshire

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by kylecycler »

This just did my head in - a Fox News chyron: PUTIN'S FORCES CONTINUE TO PUMMEL UKRAINIAN CITIES...

pummel.PNG

Aw yeah, that's what they're doing - pummelling - pummel, pummel, pummel... :roll:

If you can think of a less appropriate word to use when people and their homes and cities are getting blown to bits, go ahead. Pummel... Sheesh. :evil:

There's doubtless some shade to it (unless whoever wrote it is just clueless) - Fox's angle won't be to condemn Putin's actions, just not to endorse them; their real thrust will be to condemn Biden and his administration for... whatever.
Last edited by kylecycler on 22 Mar 2022, 12:25pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 8003
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by simonineaston »

The following has just occured to me. Given that language use is in a constant state of development and change, across a wide range of users of differing ages, education and class, disapproval of problematic uses is probably just the disapprover giving vent to their various prejudices! :lol:
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
User avatar
kylecycler
Posts: 1378
Joined: 12 Aug 2013, 4:09pm
Location: Kyle, Ayrshire

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by kylecycler »

simonineaston wrote: 22 Mar 2022, 11:29am The following has just occured to me. Given that language use is in a constant state of development and change, across a wide range of users of differing ages, education and class, disapproval of problematic uses is probably just the disapprover giving vent to their various prejudices! :lol:
To suggest that disapproving of Fox News is prejudice would be an inappropriate use of the word prejudice. But come on - 'pummel' - seriously?!
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 8003
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by simonineaston »

Generally, I take a relaxed view of language use, as I recognize that it's a dynamic situation, with nuances and change ever-present, as the language makes its way, like some lazy great river, towards the place where the estuary finally meets the horizon - The Future!
However, I do wish that lazy journalists could try a little bit harder to find a word or phrase that's an improvement on the meaningless twaddle that is "double-down" - what does it even mean?? It's everywhere! Useless!!
And while I'm at it, here's another annoyance. I get that Americans can't say the word nuclear without making a mess of it. Let's face it, Americans must all be very confused by the simple fact that their spoken language is an absolute hodge-podge of linguistic influences... so we'll let them off.
But there is a creeping tendancy for UK commentators to pronounce that supernumerary U these days - often it's just a hint of the full-blown US-style 'nook-U-ler', but its there, nevertheless. They ought to know better...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Jdsk
Posts: 24637
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

simonineaston wrote: 2 Apr 2022, 11:53amHowever, I do wish that lazy journalists could try a little bit harder to find a word or phrase that's an improvement on the meaningless twaddle that is "double-down" - what does it even mean?? It's everywhere! Useless!!
It's a gambling term. Has a specific meaning in blackjack but the concept applies in many other games.

Jonathan
Jdsk
Posts: 24637
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

simonineaston wrote: 2 Apr 2022, 11:53amAnd while I'm at it, here's another annoyance. I get that Americans can't say the word nuclear without making a mess of it. Let's face it, Americans must all be very confused by the simple fact that their spoken language is an absolute hodge-podge of linguistic influences... so we'll let them off.
But there is a creeping tendancy for UK commentators to pronounce that supernumerary U these days - often it's just a hint of the full-blown US-style 'nook-U-ler', but its there, nevertheless. They ought to know better...
It's easier to say, and I suspect a false friend in molecular.

Jonathan
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56359
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

Using A and The in the middle of a sentence.
It seems that it's not just an Americanism, but a Californianism and making its way into common English.

You use The as a definite article for a word beginning with a vowel .......... The apple, The egg, The ink, The organism, The unicorn.
(Using the capital T to empathise of course)

A instead of a?
Give me an example in English please.
Mick F. Cornwall
Jdsk
Posts: 24637
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 2 Apr 2022, 7:30pm Using A and The in the middle of a sentence.
It seems that it's not just an Americanism, but a Californianism and making its way into common English.

You use The as a definite article for a word beginning with a vowel .......... The apple, The egg, The ink, The organism, The unicorn.
(Using the capital T to empathise of course)
Are you describing the use of the two pronunciations of the?

Thanks

Jonathan
Post Reply