English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Separate forum to permit easy exclusion when searching for serious information !
mattheus
Posts: 5044
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by mattheus »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 9 Jun 2022, 11:30am I don't have a specific example to hand but something that is gifted need not be deliberately given. A frequent usage would be along the lines of:
Fulchester Rovers were gifted a goal when Uptown City's central defender failed to clear the pass and, with the goalkeeper off his line... etc.
Sport develops it's own peculiar grammar and usages (stuff like "podiumed", and "the Liverpools of this world" etc ...).
Does this accidental gift usage crop up outside sport?
Jdsk
Posts: 24640
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

mattheus wrote: 9 Jun 2022, 11:55am
Bmblbzzz wrote: 9 Jun 2022, 11:30am I don't have a specific example to hand but something that is gifted need not be deliberately given. A frequent usage would be along the lines of:
Fulchester Rovers were gifted a goal when Uptown City's central defender failed to clear the pass and, with the goalkeeper off his line... etc.
Sport develops it's own peculiar grammar and usages (stuff like "podiumed", and "the Liverpools of this world" etc ...).
Does this accidental gift usage crop up outside sport?
It does when sport is used as a metaphor for politics or negotiation, but that's really the same usage. See also own goal.

Jonathan
mattheus
Posts: 5044
Joined: 29 Dec 2008, 12:57pm
Location: Western Europe

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 9 Jun 2022, 11:58am
mattheus wrote: 9 Jun 2022, 11:55am
Bmblbzzz wrote: 9 Jun 2022, 11:30am I don't have a specific example to hand but something that is gifted need not be deliberately given. A frequent usage would be along the lines of:
Fulchester Rovers were gifted a goal when Uptown City's central defender failed to clear the pass and, with the goalkeeper off his line... etc.
Sport develops it's own peculiar grammar and usages (stuff like "podiumed", and "the Liverpools of this world" etc ...).
Does this accidental gift usage crop up outside sport?
It does when sport is used as a metaphor for politics or negotiation, but that's really the same usage. See also own goal.

Jonathan
Yup!
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6261
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

I think the idea might be likened to "a gift from the fates".
DaveReading
Posts: 746
Joined: 24 Feb 2019, 5:37pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by DaveReading »

Many of the National Trust's properties have been gifted to them.

Well they think so, anyway.
Mike Sales
Posts: 7883
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mike Sales »

A new way of putting an old idea puzzles me.

"I could care less" when the context clearly requires "I couldn't care less" seems to be mistaken logic.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Jdsk
Posts: 24640
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Mike Sales wrote: 11 Jun 2022, 11:49am A new way of putting an old idea puzzles me.

"I could care less" when the context clearly requires "I couldn't care less" seems to be mistaken logic.
Merriam-Webster on the pair, with some history:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... -care-less

concludes:

"Both could and couldn’t care less are informal, and so you are unlikely to use either one in formal writing. If you have need of using it in some other context, and would like to avoid alienating some portion of your audience you should stick with couldn’t care less. And if you can’t get past some people continuing to use could care less, and the fact that there’s nothing you can do about it, you may console yourself with the notion that at least they are not saying “I could care fewer.”"

Jonathan
Mike Sales
Posts: 7883
Joined: 7 Mar 2009, 3:31pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mike Sales »

Jdsk wrote: 11 Jun 2022, 12:17pm
Merriam-Webster on the pair, with some history:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... -care-less

concludes:

"Both could and couldn’t care less are informal, and so you are unlikely to use either one in formal writing. If you have need of using it in some other context, and would like to avoid alienating some portion of your audience you should stick with couldn’t care less. And if you can’t get past some people continuing to use could care less, and the fact that there’s nothing you can do about it, you may console yourself with the notion that at least they are not saying “I could care fewer.”"

Jonathan
Formal or informal, I do like to make sense.
Of course, the context generally makes it clear what is meant, so I am not puzzled in that way.
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
Jdsk
Posts: 24640
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Yes. It doesn't look as if there's a good explanation.

Jonathan
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56359
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

Listening to More or Less today .................... from the broadcast yesterday.

The chat came up about Billion, and how it's now accepted as (only) a thousand million these days.
The word is Billion .............. as Bi meaning Two.

One Million is one with six naughts of course. Ten to the power of six.
Billion is twice that, by definition. Bi meaning two.
10 to the power of twelve.

............ except that these days a Billion is ten to the power of nine.
It makes a mockery of the word IMHO.

Trillion should be a Million Million Million. Ten to the power of eighteen ............ but it's not.
Tri means three!

Blame the USA yet again.
Mick F. Cornwall
Jdsk
Posts: 24640
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 11 Jun 2022, 3:41pm Listening to More or Less today .................... from the broadcast yesterday.

The chat came up about Billion, and how it's now accepted as (only) a thousand million these days.
The word is Billion .............. as Bi meaning Two.

One Million is one with six naughts of course. Ten to the power of six.
Billion is twice that, by definition. Bi meaning two.
10 to the power of twelve.

............ except that these days a Billion is ten to the power of nine.
It makes a mockery of the word IMHO.

Trillion should be a Million Million Million. Ten to the power of eighteen ............ but it's not.
Tri means three!

Blame the USA yet again.
As discussed here:
viewtopic.php?p=1651013#p1651013

The debate about usage within the UK is over, and the only interest here is now in its history.

But there's still enormous variation around the world:

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_ ... rent_usage

Jonathan
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56359
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

I'm very much aware of the long scale vs the short scale thank you.
I'm raising this subject with respect to the More and Less episode I listened to today, and how it "does my head in".

Some of us went to school in the 1950's and passed our maths O Levels in the 60's and I am/was an electronics engineer specialising in radar and weapon systems.

The More or Less episode discussed miles, and how nautical miles are different, but they never mentioned data miles.
I know all the differences, but the Million/Billion/Trillion etc issue does my head in.
Mick F. Cornwall
Jdsk
Posts: 24640
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

The official usage of billion in the UK was confirmed in 1974.

Had the Navy already adopted the modern meaning by then?

Thanks

Jonathan
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56359
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

I've been on this forum for at least 18years, so I'm bound to repeat myself a bit! :lol: :lol:

The RN, used nautical miles of course, but also data miles.
One ship I served in, we had an Italian weapon direction radar direction system, and that worked in kilometres. The two systems - one fore and one aft were mine. The output from them went through my computer system, and amongst other things, converted to data miles for "prediction" for weapon aiming ......... the weapons were mine too - except for the hardware of the missile launchers and the main gun.

We didn't use million and billion, but maths and ten to the powers of X.
Usually distances were referred to miles (nautical or data) or thousands of yards, or for navigation in cables.
Longer distances were in days or hours, and not linear measurements.
Mick F. Cornwall
Jdsk
Posts: 24640
Joined: 5 Mar 2019, 5:42pm

Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Half a century is more than long enough to stop resenting what was a necessary clarification.

Jonathan
Post Reply