English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

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Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Stoneybatter wrote: 18 Aug 2022, 10:33pm Sorry if this has been mentioned, but the thread is a bit too long to check. What does my head in is when they say "the proof is in the pudding." Also when they say something "begs the question," when they mean it poses the question.
The evolution of begging the question is a sad story. It has a precise meaning in describing the logical fallacy of petitio principii.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

But the more common current usage includes dodging or not answering or posing, as you say.

It's a regrettable development because of the loss of precision.

Jonathan
Bmblbzzz
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Jdsk wrote: 19 Aug 2022, 10:43am
Stoneybatter wrote: 18 Aug 2022, 10:33pm Sorry if this has been mentioned, but the thread is a bit too long to check. What does my head in is when they say "the proof is in the pudding." Also when they say something "begs the question," when they mean it poses the question.
I think that "the proof is in the pudding" is a descendant of "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". And it seems to lose some meaning in the change.

The original is a nice reminder of proof meaning test. That only remains in English in a few settings such as alcohol concentration, gun testing, car testing (but only in proving grounds) and this phrase. And the related probate and probation. And reminds us of the close relationship of English to German.

Jonathan
And "the exception that proves the rule".
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 19 Aug 2022, 11:27am
Jdsk wrote: 19 Aug 2022, 10:43am
Stoneybatter wrote: 18 Aug 2022, 10:33pm Sorry if this has been mentioned, but the thread is a bit too long to check. What does my head in is when they say "the proof is in the pudding." Also when they say something "begs the question," when they mean it poses the question.
I think that "the proof is in the pudding" is a descendant of "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". And it seems to lose some meaning in the change.

The original is a nice reminder of proof meaning test. That only remains in English in a few settings such as alcohol concentration, gun testing, car testing (but only in proving grounds) and this phrase. And the related probate and probation. And reminds us of the close relationship of English to German.
And "the exception that proves the rule".
Yes. And that can easily be misunderstood without proves meaning tests.

Jonathan
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Jdsk wrote: 19 Aug 2022, 10:48am
Stoneybatter wrote: 18 Aug 2022, 10:33pm Sorry if this has been mentioned, but the thread is a bit too long to check. What does my head in is when they say "the proof is in the pudding." Also when they say something "begs the question," when they mean it poses the question.
The evolution of begging the question is a sad story. It has a precise meaning in describing the logical fallacy of petitio principii.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

But the more common current usage includes dodging or not answering or posing, as you say.

It's a regrettable development because of the loss of precision.

Jonathan
The phrase begging the question originated in the 16th century as a mistranslation of the Latin petitio principii, which in turn was a mistranslation of the Greek for "assuming the conclusion".
So it's no wonder the phrase is misused. If you weren't familiar with the phrase, how would you interpret "beg the question"? The only meaning I can see in it would be "begs for the question to be asked", which is far closer to "pose the question" than to either "assume the conclusion" or "dodge the question".
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Jdsk wrote: 19 Aug 2022, 11:30am
Bmblbzzz wrote: 19 Aug 2022, 11:27am
Jdsk wrote: 19 Aug 2022, 10:43am
I think that "the proof is in the pudding" is a descendant of "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". And it seems to lose some meaning in the change.

The original is a nice reminder of proof meaning test. That only remains in English in a few settings such as alcohol concentration, gun testing, car testing (but only in proving grounds) and this phrase. And the related probate and probation. And reminds us of the close relationship of English to German.
And "the exception that proves the rule".
Yes. And that can easily be misunderstood without proves meaning tests.

Jonathan

I've heard it "explained" as "the exception proves the rule, because if there wasn't a rule there couldn't be an exception to it" (which is probably an example of "begging the question" in its original sense of "assuming the conclusion" – how we go round in circles!).

It also reminds me of the phrase "starve a cold, feed a fever" which is interpreted either as being medical advice or meaning "if you starve someone who has a cold, you will feed, ie cause, a fever". I'd ask a medical doctor about this one! (Quite possibly the phrase is "feed a cold, starve a fever", I can't remember, partly due to the lack of clarity in meaning).
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 19 Aug 2022, 11:36amIt also reminds me of the phrase "starve a cold, feed a fever" which is interpreted either as being medical advice or meaning "if you starve someone who has a cold, you will feed, ie cause, a fever". I'd ask a medical doctor about this one! (Quite possibly the phrase is "feed a cold, starve a fever", I can't remember, partly due to the lack of clarity in meaning).
It's feed a cold, starve a fever. I don't know the origin, but it might be humoral theory.

And it had never occurred to me that it might describe consequence! : - )

Jonathan
Manc33
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Manc33 »

"He's a Rolls Royce" - Man United fans talking about Verane in defence.

"They're going to get found out" - This is the latest one doing the rounds in football speak. They are talking about predictable players, or teams.
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Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Manc33 wrote: 24 Aug 2022, 5:18am "He's a Rolls Royce" - Man United fans talking about Verane in defence.
Rolls-Royce as a metaphor for excellence is first recorded in 1916. Which is extraordinary as the first car bearing the name was produced in 1904.

That quote with it as a bare noun is rather brusque, there's also the adjectival use, and the rather unusual and attractive form: x is the Rolls-Royce of y.

Jonathan
reohn2
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by reohn2 »

Manc33 wrote: 24 Aug 2022, 5:18am "He's a Rolls Royce" - Man United fans talking about Verane in defence.

"They're going to get found out" - This is the latest one doing the rounds in football speak. They are talking about predictable players, or teams.
Meaning ,he costs a fortune,is heavily built,eats resources,and handles like a pig perhaps?
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by reohn2 »

I may have posted this before but what annoys a little,are people who pronounce drawing as drawring :roll:
Where did the extra 'r' come from?
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

reohn2 wrote: 24 Aug 2022, 9:13am I may have posted this before but what annoys a little,are people who pronounce drawing as drawring
Where did the extra 'r' come from?
R is the only letter that has a name describing how it works. Because it's so fascinating.

I wouldn't assume that the pronunciation that looks more like the current written form came first.

Before getting into drawing/drawring it might be worth exploring why r is so rarely pronounced at the end of a word in RP...

... and then why an r is so often inserted when pronouncing one word after another and neither has one...
Edited. Crossed post. As mentioned above.

Jonathan
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by mattheus »

Does any of this explain popular chart hits using the term "witchoo" ?
reohn2
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by reohn2 »

There's still only one r in drawing!
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Mick F
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

............ and there's only one R in Law and Order. :lol:

I may be a Lancastrian, educated in Wigan, but although I speak with a Lancashire accent even though living "darn souf" for many yonks, I can still pronunciate worms corectely and spell proppper too.
Mick F. Cornwall
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