English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

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Mistik-ka
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mistik-ka »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 2 Jul 2022, 1:28pm What about spoken sentences or those that are written in alphabets which don't use capital and full stops?
I thought this discussion concerned contemporary English grammar — contemporary English generally being written with an alphabet that accommodates capitalization and is modified by punctuation marks including full stops. (In Canadian or American English the full stop is unknown. Writing in Canadian English I close this sentence with a period. See what a difference it makes? :wink: )
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 2 Jul 2022, 1:28pm
Jdsk wrote: 2 Jul 2022, 10:36am
Mick F wrote: 2 Jul 2022, 10:34am ...
A sentence starts with a capital letter and ends with a full stop.
The full stop is included in ? or ! as well.
It must always contain a subject and a predicate.
...
Why?

Who sets this rule?

Many linguists disagree, as does the OED, see above.
What about spoken sentences or those that are written in alphabets which don't use capital and full stops?
Exactly. Both of those have sentences. As do signed languages.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Mistik-ka wrote: 2 Jul 2022, 5:30pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 2 Jul 2022, 1:28pm What about spoken sentences or those that are written in alphabets which don't use capital and full stops?
I thought this discussion concerned contemporary English grammar — contemporary English generally being written with an alphabet that accommodates capitalization and is modified by punctuation marks including full stops.
I'd like it be about: contemporary English usage with a good sprinkling of history. But unfortunately too much of it, and many of the kick-off topics, is about prescriptive rules that have been discarded by people who study the subject rather than use it to criticise others.

But contemporary English still includes speech... and as above that doesn't use capitalisation or punctuation marks... so that a complete description of what a sentence is can't rely on those.

Jonathan
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by DaveReading »

Jesus wept ...

Sorry, couldn't resist !
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Mick F
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

"Now is the time" the walrus said, "to talk of many things, of shoes and ships, and sealing wax, of cabbages and kings, and why the sea is boiling hot, and whether pigs have wings."
Mick F. Cornwall
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Audax67 »

...We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees
The taste of chips and mushy peas.


Couldn't resist it either. A propos of what? No idea.
Have we got time for another cuppa?
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 9:24am "Now is the time" the walrus said, "to talk of many things, of shoes and ships, and sealing wax, of cabbages and kings, and why the sea is boiling hot, and whether pigs have wings."
The capitalisation and punctuation of that is very different from what the author wrote.

Language changes. And accepting that is precisely the message of this thread. Then it's possible to move on to to study how and why, and to appreciate and enjoy good usage.

Jonathan
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Stevek76 »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 1 Jul 2022, 6:52pm
Jdsk wrote: 1 Jul 2022, 6:11pm From another thread... any thoughts about different from and different than?

Jonathan
My thoughts are different to either of those.
A quick sift through the internets indicates that use of 'different than' predates the existence of the USA. As such, like many things accused of being an Americanism, it is nothing of the sort.
The contents of this post, unless otherwise stated, are opinions of the author and may actually be complete codswallop
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Mick F
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

Just spent five minutes looking for our copy of Alice in Wonderland to photograph the Walrus and the Carpenter.
Sadly, I can't find the book. Probably one of our daughters has it as they both loved it, as I did.

The poem was in lines and as a poem of course.
My quote was all in one line, so consequently the punctuation would have been different to the poem.

Oysters?
They'd eaten every one. :D
Mick F. Cornwall
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by thirdcrank »

Is "so consequently" an example of tautology?
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 7:31pm...
The poem was in lines and as a poem of course.
My quote was all in one line, so consequently the punctuation would have been different to the poem.
...
It was in two lines on my screen... but one sentence! : - )

The original used long hyphens rather than commas as separators in this list. But predominantly commas in the rest of the poem. There must have been some purpose in that differentiation, and I suspect that it was to slow the reading in line with the nonsensical philosophising.

And capitalised Walrus for some reason. The character of the Walrus has been pondered ever since:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Walru ... _Carpenter

Jonathan

PS: The same article observes that the character of the Carpenter wasn't chosen by Carroll. The name just had to fit the rhythm! Paul Simon has said the same about some of his lyrics in response to questions about their deeper meaning...
Last edited by Jdsk on 3 Jul 2022, 7:47pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 3 Jul 2022, 7:37pm Is "so consequently" an example of tautology?
I think so. But that's not always undesirable.

Jonathan
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Vorpal »

It's fine to talk about complete sentences and punctuation and all, but young people mostly communicate otherwise these days. Unnecessary capitalisation and punctuation are reserved for reports for school. Lots of stuff is abbreviated, like they are using 1990s mobiles with limited text space & number pads to do all the letters. Communication looks like:

jsyk omw ttys

(Just so you know, [I'm] on my way. Talk to you soon.)
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

However you write it, and in whatever language, there's a difference between rules for writing sentences (or for writing clearly and effectively), such as "Start with a capital letter, include a subject and verb, end with appropriate punctuation", and what a sentence actually is.
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Mick F
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

Heard on R4 this morning, that .............. "There and now fewer pubs in England and Wales than there has ever been."

What??????
Don't be stupid! :lol:

Further into the report, they said it was from when records began ............ but they didn't say when the records began.

Sloppy reporting.
Mick F. Cornwall
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