English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

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DaveReading
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by DaveReading »

thirdcrank wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 7:16pmI thought that alphabet was so that the receiver could hear the letters as words. There is a system for clear transmission of numbers which seems to be less widely-known. The numbers are pretty much the English form but with distinctive pronunciation
zero, wun, too, three, forwer, fife, six, seven, eight, niner, wun-zero etc.
To round off the discussion on numbers, the prescribed pronunciation for 3 is "tree" (similarly "tousand" for 1000) and for numbers that contain a decimal point, such as VHF and UHF radio frequencies, "day-see-mal" is used to denote the point.
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kylecycler
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by kylecycler »

DaveReading wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 8:14pm To round off the discussion on numbers, the prescribed pronunciation for 3 is "tree" (similarly "tousand" for 1000) and for numbers that contain a decimal point, such as VHF and UHF radio frequencies, "day-see-mal" is used to denote the point.
I'll never forget driving on a Sunday morning, listening to some random radio broadcast where an Irish member of the divinity was going on and on and on about 'teloajins' - teloajins dis, teloajins, dat - ad infinitum...

I only kept listening because I couldn't, however hard I tried, figure out what on earth 'teloajins' were, but it was evidently something I should - obviously - have known about - or so he clearly assumed (except I didn't)...

Theologians.
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Mick F
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

DaveReading wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 7:14pm
Or, for those with longer memories:
Mrs Mick was a GPO Telephonist back in the old days.
Worked at Liverpool, Blackpool and Southport, then after we married, in Cosham (Portsmouth).

The GPO alphabet were mostly boys' names.
She's a bit hazy about it now and if I'd have asked her twenty years ago, she could have reeled them all off!
In no particular order ......

Charlie
Peter
Sugar
Lucy
Freddie
Daniel
George
Norman
Michael
Orange
Robert
William
Yellow
Mick F. Cornwall
colin54
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by colin54 »

kylecycler wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 3:23am
I'll never forget driving on a Sunday morning, listening to some random radio broadcast where an Irish member of the divinity was going on and on and on about 'teloajins' - teloajins dis, teloajins, dat - ad infinitum...

I only kept listening because I couldn't, however hard I tried, figure out what on earth 'teloajins' were, but it was evidently something I should - obviously - have known about - or so he clearly assumed (except I didn't)...

Theologians.
Wouldn't that be an Ecumenical matter ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuW8TaAlBfg
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Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 6:57pm
thirdcrank wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 3:06pm I've occasionally wondered why the NATO alphabet is also called the phonetic alphabet.
It's basically that the sender and the receiver can hear the numbers as words, and not get them wrong, but it's not phonetic in the way I understand phonics.

Alpha
Bravo
Charlie
Delta
Echo
Foxtrot
Golf
Hotel
India
Juliet
Kilo
Lima
Mike
November
Oscar
Papa
Quebec
Romeo
Sierra
Tango
Uniform
Victor
Whiskey
X-Ray
Yankee
Zulu
Alpha should be Alfa. Juliet should be Juliett. X-Ray should be Xray.

These may look trivial differences but they aren't.

For example Alpha could be pronounced alp-huh rather than al-fuh. To most experienced readers of English the ph digraph is the natural pronunciation, but that's because we're so familiar with words that use it. But the system is designed for everyone, including those unfamiliar with this strange hangover from Greek.

"Strict adherence to the prescribed spellings—including the apparently misspelled "Alfa" and "Juliett"—is required in order to avoid the problems of confusion that the code is designed to overcome. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet

Jonathan

PS:
Mick F wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 7:05pm PS
Call-sign of one of my ships was Golf Foxtrot Yankee Alfa.
Yes, Alfa.
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 3:06pm I've occasionally wondered why the NATO alphabet is also called the phonetic alphabet. This is written in what I think of as a phonetic alphabet, in my ignorance
/ˈæktʃuəl/
Mick F wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 6:57pm It's basically that the sender and the receiver can hear the numbers as words, and not get them wrong, but it's not phonetic in the way I understand phonics.
Phonetic only means using symbols to represent sounds.

Jonathan

PS: But a serious pedant could observe that the IPA isn't a true alphabet... : - )

PPS: Phonics now has a specific meaning of a system for teaching how to read.
DaveReading
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by DaveReading »

Jdsk wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 9:30amAlpha should be Alfa. Juliet should be Juliett. X-Ray should be Xray.

These may look trivial differences but they aren't.

For example Alpha could be pronounced alp-huh rather than al-fuh. To most experienced readers of English the ph digraph is the natural pronunciation, but that's because we're so familiar with words that use it. But the system is designed for everyone, including those unfamiliar with this strange hangover from Greek.

"Strict adherence to the prescribed spellings—including the apparently misspelled "Alfa" and "Juliett"—is required in order to avoid the problems of confusion that the code is designed to overcome. "
And, interestingly, the prescribed pronunciation of Papa is with the accent on the second syllable (as in French, Italian, etc) i.e. PAH PAH, though in English-speaking contexts that's largely ignored.
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 7:16pm
... It's basically that the sender and the receiver can hear the numbers as words ...
I thought that alphabet was so that the receiver could hear the letters as words. There is a system for clear transmission of numbers which seems to be less widely-known. The numbers are pretty much the English form but with distinctive pronunciation
zero, wun, too, three, forwer, fife, six, seven, eight, niner, wun-zero etc.
Four is FOW-ER.

Jonathan

PS: For numbers there is also the craft countdown sequence for explosives where five is omitted because of possible confusion with Fire. I've never known if this has any official status...
PDQ Mobile
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by PDQ Mobile »

kylecycler wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 3:23am
DaveReading wrote: 22 Dec 2021, 8:14pm To round off the discussion on numbers, the prescribed pronunciation for 3 is "tree" (similarly "tousand" for 1000) and for numbers that contain a decimal point, such as VHF and UHF radio frequencies, "day-see-mal" is used to denote the point.
I'll never forget driving on a Sunday morning, listening to some random radio broadcast where an Irish member of the divinity was going on and on and on about 'teloajins' - teloajins dis, teloajins, dat - ad infinitum...

I only kept listening because I couldn't, however hard I tried, figure out what on earth 'teloajins' were, but it was evidently something I should - obviously - have known about - or so he clearly assumed (except I didn't)...

Theologians.
I think in the case of Irish the substitution is because Gaelic (but not Welsh) lacks the "theta" sound.
So although Irish speakers of English may not speak any Gaelic it is a "remnant" of an earlier time.

The sound is relatively rare globally and has a curious distribution.
It is amongst those that many english learners find quite difficult to acquire.
It is quite interesting.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voicele ... _fricative

It has a voiced counterpart.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental_fricative
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

PDQ Mobile wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 9:51amIt is quite interesting.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voicele ... _fricative

It has a voiced counterpart.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental_fricative
It is. And for those who think that (SWIDT?) English pronunciation is given by the spelling it's a useful counterexample.

Jonathan
mattheus
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by mattheus »

Jdsk wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 9:30am
Alpha should be Alfa. Juliet should be Juliett. X-Ray should be Xray.

These may look trivial differences but they aren't.

For example Alpha could be pronounced alp-huh rather than al-fuh. To most experienced readers of English the ph digraph is the natural pronunciation, but that's because we're so familiar with words that use it. But the system is designed for everyone, including those unfamiliar with this strange hangover from Greek.

"Strict adherence to the prescribed spellings—including the apparently misspelled "Alfa" and "Juliett"—is required in order to avoid the problems of confusion that the code is designed to overcome. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet
Well I've learned my One Thing for today!

(but where is the confusion between Juliet and Juliett? )
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

mattheus wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 10:06am
Jdsk wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 9:30am
Alpha should be Alfa. Juliet should be Juliett. X-Ray should be Xray.

These may look trivial differences but they aren't.

For example Alpha could be pronounced alp-huh rather than al-fuh. To most experienced readers of English the ph digraph is the natural pronunciation, but that's because we're so familiar with words that use it. But the system is designed for everyone, including those unfamiliar with this strange hangover from Greek.

"Strict adherence to the prescribed spellings—including the apparently misspelled "Alfa" and "Juliett"—is required in order to avoid the problems of confusion that the code is designed to overcome. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet
Well I've learned my One Thing for today!

(but where is the confusion between Juliet and Juliett? )
I'd guess that it's the terminal open vowel sound in eg French if there's only one t.

Jonathan
DaveReading
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by DaveReading »

mattheus wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 10:06am
Jdsk wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 9:30am
Alpha should be Alfa. Juliet should be Juliett. X-Ray should be Xray.

These may look trivial differences but they aren't.

For example Alpha could be pronounced alp-huh rather than al-fuh. To most experienced readers of English the ph digraph is the natural pronunciation, but that's because we're so familiar with words that use it. But the system is designed for everyone, including those unfamiliar with this strange hangover from Greek.

"Strict adherence to the prescribed spellings—including the apparently misspelled "Alfa" and "Juliett"—is required in order to avoid the problems of confusion that the code is designed to overcome. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet
Well I've learned my One Thing for today!

(but where is the confusion between Juliet and Juliett? )
At a guess, it's meant as a reminder that (alone among all the letters) Juliett is supposed to be pronounced with a double stress, i.e. JEW LEE ETT.

Again, that's widely ignored in practice.
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by PDQ Mobile »

DaveReading wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 10:22am
mattheus wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 10:06am
Jdsk wrote: 23 Dec 2021, 9:30am
Alpha should be Alfa. Juliet should be Juliett. X-Ray should be Xray.

These may look trivial differences but they aren't.

For example Alpha could be pronounced alp-huh rather than al-fuh. To most experienced readers of English the ph digraph is the natural pronunciation, but that's because we're so familiar with words that use it. But the system is designed for everyone, including those unfamiliar with this strange hangover from Greek.

"Strict adherence to the prescribed spellings—including the apparently misspelled "Alfa" and "Juliett"—is required in order to avoid the problems of confusion that the code is designed to overcome. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet
Well I've learned my One Thing for today!

(but where is the confusion between Juliet and Juliett? )
At a guess, it's meant as a reminder that (alone among all the letters) Juliett is supposed to be pronounced with a double stress, i.e. JEW LEE ETT.

Again, that's widely ignored in practice.
It seems to me that all this effort to avoid confusion actually leads to more potential for problems.
It is typical of a kind of academic overthinking.

So to list the different versions of Covid with just a simple numerical or alphabetical sequence seems perfectly alright.

Much of any such labelling is written anyway, especially where it's important.
A,B, .....


Ignore "five" if it troubles the trigger finger, though I find it a very silly reason for the case in point.
Context nearly always resolves any such confusion anyway.



Better than silly longwinded unknown concocted labels that many folk pronounce wrongly anyway.
thirdcrank
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by thirdcrank »

I'd say the point about the NATO alphabet letters is that each letter is represented by a distinctive word so if the pronunciation varies with accent etc, the meaning should still be clear, while with the numbers, the English version is retained but with formalised exaggerated pronunciation to retain clarity of meaning.

I have a vague memory of Roman soldiers in Up Pompeii (?) counting aye, aye aye etc. OK till the RN was stuck et two.
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