English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

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Bmblbzzz
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Mick F wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 6:29pm When we were at skool, it was explained very clearly about the difference between ..........

The boys caps, the boy's caps, and the boys' caps.

First tells you nothing.
Second tells you that a single boy has more than one cap.
The third tells you that there is more than one boy, and they have a cap or more each.
Which illustrates the problem. English has ended up with three different grammatical forms which sound identical and are written almost identically – there is literally not even a letter difference!
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Mick F wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 6:29pm When we were at skool, it was explained very clearly about the difference between ..........

The boys caps, the boy's caps, and the boys' caps.

First tells you nothing.
Second tells you that a single boy has more than one cap.
The third tells you that there is more than one boy, and they have a cap or more each.
The last of those isn't right. if there were three boys and two had a cap and one didn't it would be possible and the standard form to refer to the boys' caps. But they wouldn't have "a cap or more each".

Jonathan
richardfm
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by richardfm »

Bmblbzzz wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 8:43pm
Mick F wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 6:29pm When we were at skool, it was explained very clearly about the difference between ..........

The boys caps, the boy's caps, and the boys' caps.

First tells you nothing.
Second tells you that a single boy has more than one cap.
The third tells you that there is more than one boy, and they have a cap or more each.
Which illustrates the problem. English has ended up with three different grammatical forms which sound identical and are written almost identically – there is literally not even a letter difference!
It's lucky we have apostrophes to be able to tell them apart
Richard M
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Bmblbzzz »

richardfm wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 10:17pm
Bmblbzzz wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 8:43pm
Mick F wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 6:29pm When we were at skool, it was explained very clearly about the difference between ..........

The boys caps, the boy's caps, and the boys' caps.

First tells you nothing.
Second tells you that a single boy has more than one cap.
The third tells you that there is more than one boy, and they have a cap or more each.
Which illustrates the problem. English has ended up with three different grammatical forms which sound identical and are written almost identically – there is literally not even a letter difference!
It's lucky we have apostrophes to be able to tell them apart
In a way, yes. Though in a thousand years' time it will probably have evolved into something else, perhaps more distinct, as we used to have. Or maybe it will evolve towards something simpler, with no distinction between boy and boys, let alone boy's and boys'.
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Audax67
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Audax67 »

Mick F wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 6:29pm When we were at skool, it was explained very clearly about the difference between ..........

The boys caps, the boy's caps, and the boys' caps.

First tells you nothing.
Second tells you that a single boy has more than one cap.
The third tells you that there is more than one boy, and they have a cap or more each.
Other than that the writer is illiterate.
Have we got time for another cuppa?
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

Audax67 wrote: 8 Dec 2022, 8:19am
Mick F wrote: 6 Dec 2022, 6:29pm When we were at skool, it was explained very clearly about the difference between ..........

The boys caps, the boy's caps, and the boys' caps.

First tells you nothing.
Second tells you that a single boy has more than one cap.
The third tells you that there is more than one boy, and they have a cap or more each.
Other than that the writer is illiterate.
Yes, I can't see how that would be used in common parlance and with standard punctuation.

What was it intended to mean?

Jonathan
Dingdong
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Dingdong »

The word Periscope, which has now been borrowed into another silly app name :mrgreen:
sjs
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by sjs »

"Go extinct" grates with me. The beeb likes it. But a lot of the beeb grates with me these days.
mattheus
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by mattheus »

sjs wrote: 19 Dec 2022, 5:01pm "Go extinct" grates with me. The beeb likes it. But a lot of the beeb grates with me these days.
Hmm. Interesting ...
"Go ... " works OK with some adjectives: "he's gone quiet".

Why does it sound wrong with extinct? I wonder if it's because extinction is generally a very slow process; or because it's permanaent (whereas "quiet" usually wouldn't be)??

Does Mr Attenborough use this variant?!?
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Mick F
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Mick F »

Become extinct.
In danger of being extinct.

Things can't "go" extinct.
Mick F. Cornwall
thirdcrank
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by thirdcrank »

So much cheaper than buying Fowler.
DaveReading
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by DaveReading »

mattheus wrote: 21 Dec 2022, 8:37am
sjs wrote: 19 Dec 2022, 5:01pm "Go extinct" grates with me. The beeb likes it. But a lot of the beeb grates with me these days.
Hmm. Interesting ...
"Go ... " works OK with some adjectives: "he's gone quiet".

Why does it sound wrong with extinct? I wonder if it's because extinction is generally a very slow process; or because it's permanaent (whereas "quiet" usually wouldn't be)??

Does Mr Attenborough use this variant?!?
The difference is that to go quiet is something you actively do.

To become extinct is something that happens to you (or rather, to your species).
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

DaveReading wrote: 21 Dec 2022, 9:59am ...
The difference is that to go quiet is something you actively do.

To become extinct is something that happens to you (or rather, to your species).
Thanks for stating a reason.

Jonathan
thirdcrank
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by thirdcrank »

Thinking back - with some difficulty - to "O" Level English, I think that there are some verbs which can be qualified by an adjective (or an adjectival phrase) rather than an adverb. There must be a name for this which I've forgotten or never learnt.

I believe it's only our old friend on this thread - usage - that determines what goes with what. I cannot remember anything which says that only active usages are acceptable.
Jdsk
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Re: English Language - what "Does your head in" ??

Post by Jdsk »

thirdcrank wrote: 21 Dec 2022, 11:48am Thinking back - with some difficulty - to "O" Level English, I think that there are some verbs which can be qualified by an adjective (or an adjectival phrase) rather than an adverb. There must be a name for this which I've forgotten or never learnt.
...
I can't think of how adjectives can qualify verbs in Standard English.

Was that about usages such as:
The bike looks good.
?

Thanks

Jonathan
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