Frame Colour

[Bensons]

Yes, Samuel, building it! He isn't due home until about 1am even if his flight is on time so I will have to make him lots of coffee.

The frame was £820, I didn't upgrade the tubing so the extras were only the enamel badge and the head tube/barbers pole. On the web page that comes to £770 with shipping. So £50 more I suppose but I don't have a breakdown and I didn't ask beforehand. I don't know what the limitations are, the local shop talked to BJ about the alterations. I don't really understand it all to be honest, I leave that to Mr B and the lovely man at the LBS.

That looks lovely Mgate. Where is he based? We are looking to get our tandem resprayed in the worst of the winter months but need someone with a big oven. Contenders are Argos, Mercian and BJ at the minute.

[Samuel D]

Yes, Samuel, building it! He isn't due home until about 1am even if his flight is on time so I will have to make him lots of coffee.

The poor man! I have a more humble frame (Spa Audax) awaiting similar attention at the moment. I’ve been putting it off for a week, purportedly to assemble all the fiddly little bits and pieces needed. Sounds like you’ll be on the road before me.

[fastpedaller]

I have a more humble frame (Spa Audax) awaiting similar attention at the moment. I’ve been putting it off for a week, purportedly to assemble all the fiddly little bits and pieces needed. Sounds like you’ll be on the road before me.

I hope you enjoy it, as I have my Spa Tourer. The only thing I didn't get on with was the taper bearing headset which came supplied with it (I fitted it myself). I will be interested to see how you get on with yours if it is also taper bearing. I changed mine to balls, and all is fine.

[Samuel D]

The only thing I didn't get on with was the taper bearing headset which came supplied with it (I fitted it myself). I will be interested to see how you get on with yours if it is also taper bearing. I changed mine to balls, and all is fine.

I have a Tange Seiki Terious headset with tapered roller bearing at one end and balls at the other. Probably similar to the one you didn’t get on with. (What about it did you not like?) Spa fitted the cups, so that job was done right. We’ll see how I get on with it.

[Bensons]

He has got everything he needs for it Samuel so yes I should be on the road this weekend. I have suggested he puts my other one back together first (post respray) as surely it will be much easier but he is having none of it. He has only spent one night at home in the last two weeks since the respray was collected.

We are visiting family this weekend and planning on a Sunday morning ride - if he doesn't feel like building it (which I doubt knowing him) we will have to take the tandem .

[fastpedaller]

The only thing I didn't get on with was the taper bearing headset which came supplied with it (I fitted it myself). I will be interested to see how you get on with yours if it is also taper bearing. I changed mine to balls, and all is fine.

I have a Tange Seiki Terious headset with tapered roller bearing at one end and balls at the other. Probably similar to the one you didn’t get on with. (What about it did you not like?) Spa fitted the cups, so that job was done right. We’ll see how I get on with it.

Mine was a Tange with tapered rollers top and bottom. I tried a number of times to adjust it, but it was either too loose (ie shake if brake was applied and bike was rocked), or too tight meaning it felt peculiar to ride (if I lifted the front of the bike and tilted it the steering would not readily move!). I tried it with less viscous grease as well. I've never given up with anything mechanical before.

[PH]

The swatch has just arrived and it is a match for the bike. My husband is at home tomorrow, he will be very busy.

Top marks to BJ for getting the confirmation sorted, I hope you're not too disappointed.
I'm not too keen on the colour, but for me the lack of decals, the classy head tube badge and the barber pole still make it a good looking frame.

[Bensons]

It will be fine PH, I have got used to it now the initial shock has worn off.

[Brucey]

The only thing I didn't get on with was the taper bearing headset which came supplied with it (I fitted it myself). I will be interested to see how you get on with yours if it is also taper bearing. I changed mine to balls, and all is fine.

I have a Tange Seiki Terious headset with tapered roller bearing at one end and balls at the other. Probably similar to the one you didn’t get on with. (What about it did you not like?) Spa fitted the cups, so that job was done right. We’ll see how I get on with it.

Mine was a Tange with tapered rollers top and bottom. I tried a number of times to adjust it, but it was either too loose (ie shake if brake was applied and bike was rocked), or too tight meaning it felt peculiar to ride (if I lifted the front of the bike and tilted it the steering would not readily move!). I tried it with less viscous grease as well. I've never given up with anything mechanical before.

OT this but roller bearing headsets? I've never really got on with them either, and have had similar experiences. BTW those used in bicycle headsets are usually needle rollers rather than true taper rollers.

The thing is that there are problems;

- needle rollers set at an angle cannot bear any real load without scuffing (because they are not true taper rollers).
- the axial preload needs to be set in proportion to the expected lateral load in service
- because the steerer flexes and sees a lateral load all the time, a low angle roller bearing won't stay put perfectly under any circumstances.

I've never taken apart a low angle roller bearing headset and seen even wear marks on the lower race; the usual thing is to find that all the races have been sitting cocked for much of the time. Less preload = more movement = rattling over the bumps. If you set the axial preload enough to that the lateral movement is tolerably small, the headset will usually be significantly draggy. The smaller the frame (and the shorter the head tube), the larger the lateral load in service, and the worse everything gets because you need more preload in a system where everything is less stretchy. I think that low angle roller bearing headsets -if they work at all well- work best on larger frames with longer head tubes, where the frame design has a lot of trail too.

Note also that if there is any lateral movement (and there is always some rather than none, else the races wouldn't cock), then the seals cannot work properly. This usually makes such headsets pretty much a non-starter on a mudguardless machine IMHO. If winter water gets into the bearings, the headset is pretty much scrap right away; the water isn't pushed away from the loaded part of the bearing (as it is in ball-bearings) and is thus able to corrode the working parts of the bearing more easily. Once the bearing is marked, the steering will be bad because roller bearings need more preload to work correctly and this makes them more sensitive to damaged bearing surfaces.

If you see a properly designed taper roller headstock bearing (as found on motorcycles) then the roller angle is nearly vertical and this means the bearing can work properly. I've only ever seen pictures of one bicycle headset that was designed in this 'correct' way.

So it is ball bearings for me.

cheers

[jardine]

It will be fine PH, I have got used to it now the initial shock has worn off.

I'm glad to hear it- I got a RAL-matched colour done on a Roberts, which is an industrial standard so it's pretty reliable from a good finisher. I also work with specialised custom finishes most days/weeks. Stone (for flooring/bathrooms) is a really difficult one, as are 'antique-finished' mirrors and natural timber finishes, and the people who pay top dollar for them can be difficult litigious SoBs, so you get them to sign off on a physical sample, which you use with suppliers and fitters to control the finished product so there's no argument with either the contractors or the client.

Good looking frame- I'm sure once it's out in the sun on the open road it will be a thing of great joy!

[Bensons]

I had to check though Jardine as it was so far removed from what we saw on our screens. I think my husband dislikes it more than I do now, he is still at the cringing stage because he has only seen it in daylight once.

We are fairly relaxed people generally and there is only so much energy I can give a colour (which is still not what I would choose). I can see a respray at some point but it would be daft to do it now as despite the colour it is a lovely job.

[Des49]

It will be fine PH, I have got used to it now the initial shock has worn off.

Really glad you seem happier with the situation now.

It looks great and I am sure it will be even better fully made up.

[MGate]

Arthur Caygill are in Richmond in North Yorkshire - a lovely place to visit! While you are up you can ride some of the Tour Stages! Super job a great shop. They are excellent frame builders too.

BTW - I too had a Tange headset fitted - it was the only one low enough to fit. I had purchased a lovely Campagnolo Record headset but that wouldn't work, stack height too high, so when I picked up the frame I got Caygills to upgrade the headset on my Flying Gate from an Olmo to the Record Headset. Lovely. Ah the joy of bikes...

[Bensons]

I will look him up Mgate, thank you. I grew up nearby, in fact we are visiting this weekend!

[Samuel D]

BTW those used in bicycle headsets are usually needle rollers rather than true taper rollers.

When I look closely, I see the rollers in my Tange Seiki Terious headset do indeed appear to be cylindrical rather than tapered. Interesting. I had just assumed they were tapered to reduce sliding friction.

But a tapered roller would incur friction at whatever device is used to prevent it from being squeezed out under load. Is it likely that that friction would end up being greater than the sliding friction arising from a cylindrical shape?

There must be a reason for making the rollers cylindrical rather than tapered. Maybe just cost.

As I mentioned, the headset Spa sent me has a roller bearing at one end and ball bearing at the other. This may be an attempt to combine the benefits of both types with less friction than two needle-roller bearings. Whether it is well advised is another matter, since simple ball bearings seem to last okay.