Unlit cyclists: maybe safer!

[Auchmill]

Funny, Drossall, I was just typing that. Somebody raised the issue of Questionnaires, so I tried to address it, but I did not mean to suggest it was appropriate in this case. Questionnaires are about attitudes and opinions, as you say. In most cases, emperical observational studies are most appropriate for investigating issues of cause and effect.

[reohn2]

I don't see the fuel hikes having had much effect. In my mind, it's much more about carrot than stick.

Only if you can afford the carrots.

[sham22]

bicycle
|
|
|
|
|
v

|----> car
|
|
surely it isn't that bad ?

[Sares]

Yes, carrots trying to compete with other carrots (the convenience and status of car travel) are hugely expensive. Sometimes the competing carrots must be cut down a bit!

[Ben Lovejoy]

I don't see the fuel hikes having had much effect. In my mind, it's much more about carrot than stick.

Only if you can afford the carrots.

The evidence is clear that people will make sacrifices in other areas in order to maintain car use. Petrol is almost a fiver a gallon now - unimaginable just a few years ago - and yet demand for car usage has not reduced in the slightest.

If we want to encourage greater use of other forms of transport, we need to make the alternatives more appealing. In particular, we need a *genuine* integrated transport policy.

For example, putting guards vans back onto trains so that people can easily make journeys by a combination of bike and train. Secure covered bicycle parking at train stations where the bike is only needed at one end of the journey. And yes, ample, secure, affordable car-parking at train stations so people can use the car to start their journey and do the long-distance bit by train.

Ben

[thirdcrank]

IMO one pretty obvious thing would be even more hugely subsidised public transport. As a geriatric, I am now entitled to a free bus pass, soon to cover the entire country. Why not extend free/ or at least cheap bus travel to everybody? At the moment, at least around here, the buses seem to run half empty at peak times and fill up with the likes of me during the day.

Once upon a time, Leeds had its municipally owned transport, run with an intention to shift the population when needed. Bus inspectors monitoring passenger queues/ delayed buses etc., and calling out additional buses as needed. That was all scrapped, the city is often approaching fume-laden gridlock, and the money spent on covering a large part of the city in tarmac is a fraction of what it would have cost to provide a continental quality public transport system.

[DaveP]

a continental quality public transport system.

That's the scary part isn't it? We can look around, see that others have found better ways, and even that doesn't amount to a reason to change our ways

[Ben Lovejoy]

Though I think there is a tendency to view other European countries through rose-tinted glasses.

Many, for example, rely heavily on trams, which seem to me to combine the weak-points of trains (inability to manouevre round obstacles, and poor stopping distances) with the weak-points of buses (limited speeds and capacities), and then give us lethally slippery surfaces to cycle over, throwing in the most ungodly noise for good measure!

Sure, if you're talking about the French TGV network, fantastic - for a country with huge distances to cover and lots of empty land, that's a brilliant service. And, of course, every other city in the world was able to learn lessons from London's tube system and make a better job of the next generation (mostly allowing a third track in tunnels to cope with track and signal failures, and installing cooling systems).

But as someone who spends a fair amount of time in other European capitals, I don't find that any of them are dramatically better to get around than is London. And don't even get me started on the almost-monthly Paris public transport strikes ...

Ben

[Tom Richardson]

Many, for example, rely heavily on trams, which seem to me to combine the weak-points of trains (inability to manouevre round obstacles, and poor stopping distances) with the weak-points of buses (limited speeds and capacities), and then give us lethally slippery surfaces to cycle over, throwing in the most ungodly noise for good measure!


Ben

theres something about the trams here in sheffield that I've never been able to put my finger on but makes them much more attractive than the buses. Theyre posher for a start, a bit more roomy and don't go in for the white knuckle ride that you get from most bus services around here. Consequently theyre frequently packed with people when the buses are empty - against logic because I agree that buses ought to be a better option but just aren't. (The tracks are bad news - I have bent a couple of wheels and had a 20 yard slide down the road on my backside as a consequence of them).

I don't think that bus services will improve unless they're re-nationalised. The London experience seems to confirm it. If I were a bus company I wouldn't fork out 100k for a bus then pay a driver to run a service until the passengers were queueing at the bus stops unless the subsidy was high enough to repay the loans and cover the cost of my scottish castle.

[stoobs]

Whatever happened to trolley buses, then. They seemed to be a smart solution at the time. Why not now?

[thirdcrank]

Until not so long ago (I'm 63 and I can remember) there were trolley buses in Bradford and Hull. 'Cleaner' and very quiet, but obviously the electricity has to be generated somewhere. There were trams in Leeds up to the early fifties. Away from the city centre, many of the tram tracks were in sparate areas, usually the central reservation of a dual carriageway. (Deviating even further from cycle lights, at most tram stops passengers walked from the kerb, and halfway across the road to the tram. Anybody with a pram - and we are talking big prams invariably pushed by women, walked down the offside of the tram and parked their pram on the unused platform next to the driver. To do that nowadays you would need a hi-viz jacket and hazard warning lamps and you'd still be crushed.)

I think that on issues with both trams and trolleys was that there was no real investment in the networks. In Leeds I think they simply bought up the stuff that other systems were scrapping and squeezed a few more years out of it.

[George Riches]

Tram tracks are bad news for cyclists, but if you keep away you can be sure that a tram is not going to cut you up!
Passengers like trams because they don't get held up so much as buses and give a far more comfortable ride. A bus throws me about when I try to walk to/from the door and reading on one gives me a headache. I find neither disadvantage on trams.

[Mick F]

A bus throws me about when I try to walk to/from the door and reading on one gives me a headache. I find neither disadvantage on trams.

I drive the Community Bus regularly. I am also a member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists. I take my driving seriously, including driving the bus.

I always drive gently and smoothly. I pretend I have a bowl of hot soapy water on my lap as I drive. My passengers are the most precious cargo that anyone could ever carry. I treat them gently and never jolt them. I never pull away until everyone is sat down and settled.

It's a massive pity that all bus drivers don't drive like me. I wish they did. Coz most IMO are inconsiderate and heavy-footed.

(I'll get off my high horse now)

[Ben Lovejoy]

You've probably done the IAM off-road exercise of driving with a plastic cup full of water on your bonnet? Some of us were suggesting that real advanced drivers would do it with paint-stripper.

[reohn2]

I don't see the fuel hikes having had much effect. In my mind, it's much more about carrot than stick.

Only if you can afford the carrots.

The evidence is clear that people will make sacrifices in other areas in order to maintain car use. Petrol is almost a fiver a gallon now - unimaginable just a few years ago - and yet demand for car usage has not reduced in the slightest.

If we want to encourage greater use of other forms of transport, we need to make the alternatives more appealing. In particular, we need a *genuine* integrated transport policy.

For example, putting guards vans back onto trains so that people can easily make journeys by a combination of bike and train. Secure covered bicycle parking at train stations where the bike is only needed at one end of the journey. And yes, ample, secure, affordable car-parking at train stations so people can use the car to start their journey and do the long-distance bit by train.

Ben

You're talking my language when talking about an integrated public transport system.The down side is that it isn't happening.
There is a little ex mining village/smalltown(Golborne) close to where I live with a railway line running straight through it to Manchester and part of the west coast line ,it had a station until the early 70's, the platform's there and with minimum cost could be open as a station again but though all the people want a station the council don't.That small town would be reborn with a station for commuters etc it would also relieve local roads of a lot of traffic.
The frustration is unbelievable!
There is a lot of money being made from oil and motor industries,need I go on.
Just one more point,I believe public transport like the utilities should be publicly owned and run for the people.

Has anyone heard of Maglev monorail systems?
These could be run over the top of the central reservations of motorways and major trunk roads,with stations at every motorway service station!they cost the same to build per mile as motorways but the speed is incredible.Maybe one day.