Cycling UK Forum

Hi All,
Just stripping and priming a 1959 Bates but when I tried to put in some old BB cups to protect the threads I found it was an oversized BB which I hadn't known. I've put a search into ebay and it returned absolutely nothing. Is this a very rare BB size? What are the alternatives, if any? Has anyone got an old usable one I can buy?
Did the fork up first because the frame needs a repair, and as a test for the colour and style, I think it came out quite well and I was really looking forward to doing up the frame but it seems pointless if it can't be made usable.
Cheers... Alex

Have you tried contacting Hilary Stone:

http://www.hilarystone.com/

He is the first person I can bring to mind who should either have the parts or be able to put you in the right direction.

Some further information:

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/co ... ckets.html

It seems Phil Wood supply Chater Lea cup threads for their bottom brackets, if you are using cotterless cranks and not too woried about being period correct:

http://hubjub.co.uk/index.php/store/too ... ups-detail

Google "Bayliss Wiley unit bottom bracket".....an old dodge was to fit one of these into a BB shell designed for Chater oversize. ....of course, the Bayliss Wiley ones have been out of production for decades, too.....

I don't remember offhand what the exact thread size was for these BBs (if it is the same as the oversize tandem thread then disregard my first suggestion) but a couple of ideas for you;

1) is it the same as a TDC oversize BB thread? This was a common route back in the day for saving a frame with damaged BB threads; an oversize (~ +1mm) thread would be machined into the shell, and a set of matching oversize cups would be fitted. These are distinguished from common or garden TDC cups by an 'O' stamp mark on each cup. A standard cup will barely catch the threads in a frame tapped oversize.

2) If you can get cups of any kind, in any condition, that fit OK, you can make a workable bottom bracket. Just get a competent machine shop to turn the insides of the cups into a location for a cartridge bearing. For this a soft -e.g. aluminium- collet (to hold the cups on the screw threads without damage in a conventional chuck) and a carbide tipped tool will be required. There are very many workable cartridge bearing BB units that can be used, eg sun race, Neco, etc. If you are using cottered cranks then I'd suggest getting hold of a cartridge bearing unit (eg a Thompson-fit one) and use the same approach. The beauty of this approach is that the same cups can be used over and over again with sealed BBs of the same flavour.

hth

cheers

Freddie wrote:
It seems Phil Wood supply Chater Lea cup threads for their bottom brackets, if you are using cotterless cranks and not too woried about being period correct:

Thanks for that, Freddie. Hub Jub have some on their site and will contact them tomorrow.

531colin wrote:Google "Bayliss Wiley unit bottom bracket".....an old dodge was to fit one of these into a BB shell designed for Chater oversize. ....of course, the Bayliss Wiley ones have been out of production for decades, too.....

Thanks 531colin, looked for the Bayliss Wiley unit but drawn a blank.

Brucey wrote:I don't remember offhand what the exact thread size was for these BBs (if it is the same as the oversize tandem thread then disregard my first suggestion) but a couple of ideas for you;

Thanks Brucey, you're always a mine of information. Apparently the large Chater Lea BB was used extensively in early tandems and is 1.45 inch diameter. This makes it much bigger than the normal oversize BB and almost 1 mm larger than the Italian BB.

After the bank holiday, I'll try to locate the original BB from this frame because it looks like it has only just been removed and may still be with the seller. If this is not viable due to being worn out or cottered axle etc. there are adapter cups available at Hub Jub which "Freddie" put me on to.

Thank you all for your help and have a Happy New year.
Cheers... Alex

Plus one for TDC "O" Oversize Bottom Bracket. They also did an "OO", both of which I have used in past . Shop I got them from long gone, sadly. Nice Bates, I currently run a Volante on odd occasions,nice lugs than a hetchins in my opinion.

Interesting fork though...

http://davesbikeblog.squarespace.com/bl ... ition.html

Hi there, The link posted the mention of the "Nice Fork" contains errata?
Mention is made of the Baines Flying Gate, stating that it was originally called The Whirlwind! No, it was properly called "The Baines V.S. 37". The 37 refers to the wheelbase.
Rather fancy a new one. But my wife would have a dicky fit! TTFN MM

I've seen "threadless" bottom brackets for Cottered Cranks on Fleabay but not used one so can't comment if they might work with Williams/ Chater etc that you may well be contemplating for this rebuild.

merseymouth wrote:Hi there, The link posted the mention of the "Nice Fork" contains errata?
Mention is made of the Baines Flying Gate, stating that it was originally called The Whirlwind! No, it was properly called "The Baines V.S. 37". The 37 refers to the wheelbase.
Rather fancy a new one. But my wife would have a dicky fit! TTFN MM

I have a 2006 'TJ' Flying Gate and I think its wonderful - they turn up everynow and again 2nd hand - in my opinion merseymouth worth 6 months in the doghouse from SWMBO!

If frame is pre renovation would it be worth getting a frame builder to run some brass in and recut the thread to the requisite size?

9494arnold wrote:If frame is pre renovation would it be worth getting a frame builder to run some brass in and recut the thread to the requisite size?

Thanks for the reply, 9494arnold. It seems simple, doesn't it? But first of all you've got to cover both the entire threads evenly with brass, then bore right through the bottom bracket to the core diameter of the thread, exactly square to the faces of the BB in two axis and then re-tap. With the right machinery, the boring and then the tapping could be done but looking at it without any welding/brazing expertise it looks one hell of a nasty, and costly, job to me. I'm just waiting and hoping that the seller can find the original BB in the (as yet unsorted) boxes of stuff he bought with the frames and failing that, an old scrap tandem might still have one in it or the third option is the oversize cups, which still seem to be available, to take a modern cartridge BB. I've still got three or four months left to get things sorted and there's also a seat stay repair on this frame which at the moment appears to be more difficult to sort out than I expected. All in all this has not been a good buy. I had plans for this to be the best frame renovation I've ever done, and seeing how the fork turned out, I fully expected it to be a superb example of the marque in just a slightly tweaked original livery. Now I'm expecting it to be the most difficult and the costliest restoration I've ever done and if I ever get it to the painting stage I'll look on it as an achievement...at a cost.
Cheers... Alex

531colin wrote:Google "Bayliss Wiley unit bottom bracket".....an old dodge was to fit one of these into a BB shell designed for Chater oversize. ....of course, the Bayliss Wiley ones have been out of production for decades, too.....

Look what's popped up on EBay -
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-BAYLI ... SwoydWl~PZ

Thats the chappie!
I think the adjusting cup (with the hexagon) might be a replacement, but its not important, the important thing is the threaded sleeve, which lets you use any standard BB cups and which will, I think, fit inside a Chater Lea shell.
Worth getting the vendor to gauge it up for you?

531colin wrote: which lets you use any standard BB cups and which will, I think, fit inside a Chater Lea shell. Worth getting the vendor to gauge it up for you?

Should be fine. I remember using them in the 1970s in the rear bottom bracket of old Claud Butler and Sun tandems.