Saddle height for knee problems

[robing]

I have had a lot of knee problems. left knee ACL repair - no problems at all. Right knee multiple surgeries for meniscal tear and it is this knee that has caused me so many problems on the bike, resulting in me having to pull out from LEJOG twice.

I have found a solution - partly due to a bike fit, mostly from trial and error.

105.48 per cent - saddle to pedal axle divided by inseam expressed as a percentage. This is considerably less than the recommended 109 per cent. Since I found my optimum saddle height I've had no further problems and have done 2 end to ends, round Ireland and Spain.

I thought I would share this for other people with knee problems, but I realise we are all different and it may not work for others. But to me it's been a revelation.

[SpannerGeek]

It's a very individual thing. My friend actually put his saddle UP 1.5cm and knee problems disappeared within a fortnight!

[robing]

Yes it is individual. One thing's for sure though, get it wrong and that little bit of pain and discomfort just magnifies the more you ride. As I said, it forced me to quit LEJOG twice after 3 days. Now though I find the knee gets better the more miles I do. If I haven't ridden for a while I feel a few niggles for the first 10 miles or so, then it settles down.

[AJ101]

same as you, exterior 3/4s meniscus removal, find that a higher seat and slightly further back helps, mentally it feels like it keeps the joint more open. I also need to spin lower gears on climbs rather than mash a big gear up now.

[LollyKat]

Shorter cranks can help too, as the knee doesn't need to flex so much.

[robing]

same as you, exterior 3/4s meniscus removal, find that a higher seat and slightly further back helps, mentally it feels like it keeps the joint more open. I also need to spin lower gears on climbs rather than mash a big gear up now.

Yes, I spin in lower gears/higher cadence too. Do you run at all? I really enjoy running, especially in winter when I don't cycle as much, but I do get a bit of gip in the knee.

[531colin]

I don't believe any of these "magic number ratios" comparing some body dimension with some bike dimension.
Your saddle height should be leg length (defined as*****) multiplied by a magic number.....is that for 60 year old ex-rugby players, or 20 year old ballet dancers?
Why "should" the bend in my knee at the bottom of the stroke be "X" degrees? No magic number approach takes any account of individual functionality.
I also don't believe the modern mantra that you should set your saddle as high as possible because you get maximum power from minimum muscle work when the knee is (almost) straight.....in fact, quite the reverse.......
Most of the time on the bike I'm not looking for maximum power, I'm just cruising along. So I think the most important criterion for saddle height is that it should be low enough so you are smooth "through the bottom" ON YOUR WORST DAY when you are stiff/tired/whatever......because thats the day you are likely to get injured. If I'm looking for maximum power, I can always slide back in the saddle, and if I'm forcing the gear my heel normally drops a bit anyway.
Every day I see people with their saddle so high they pedal on tiptoe just to reach the pedal at the bottom...how is that efficient? If you are stretching to reach the pedal, you are just one step away from over-extending your knee.
Read Steve Hogg....https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/addendum-to-seat-height-how-hard-can-it-be-2/
Some notes on bike setup you can download here..http://wheel-easy.org.uk/

[MikeF]

If I'm looking for maximum power, I can always slide back in the saddle,

Yes I find that as well and it feels quite "comfortable" to do. However the modern trend is towards steep seat angles - especially for short people like me - which makes it much harder to do. What I have found is that my saddle height, BB to top of saddle, on different bikes is very similar and they have all been set empirically.

[531colin]

Well, yes..... see my rant here about letting fashion dictate your riding position http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=102749&start=45
Maybe a different brand of bike, or even just a layback post?

[AJ101]

same as you, exterior 3/4s meniscus removal, find that a higher seat and slightly further back helps, mentally it feels like it keeps the joint more open. I also need to spin lower gears on climbs rather than mash a big gear up now.

Yes, I spin in lower gears/higher cadence too. Do you run at all? I really enjoy running, especially in winter when I don't cycle as much, but I do get a bit of gip in the knee.

Yes, first time out after the op I got a really weird burning sensation after about 3 miles that I now realise was a form of arthritis/inflamation. I changed the way I run from heel striking to front foot running, which took a lot of changing - both to flat shoes with no heel cushioning and to stretching my calves plenty as they were now taking all of the strain.

No I also prefer to run off road, I find it's more forgiving for long distances. Front foot running has really been a boon. Check out the POSE method if you want more information.

[robing]

same as you, exterior 3/4s meniscus removal, find that a higher seat and slightly further back helps, mentally it feels like it keeps the joint more open. I also need to spin lower gears on climbs rather than mash a big gear up now.

Yes, I spin in lower gears/higher cadence too. Do you run at all? I really enjoy running, especially in winter when I don't cycle as much, but I do get a bit of gip in the knee.

Yes, first time out after the op I got a really weird burning sensation after about 3 miles that I now realise was a form of arthritis/inflamation. I changed the way I run from heel striking to front foot running, which took a lot of changing - both to flat shoes with no heel cushioning and to stretching my calves plenty as they were now taking all of the strain.

No I also prefer to run off road, I find it's more forgiving for long distances. Front foot running has really been a boon. Check out the POSE method if you want more information.

Thanks for that, that's interesting.

[Bigdummysteve]

I've had knee problems on and off since about 14 , Osgood–Schlatter disease, rugby, years of skydiving and a job involving lots of kneeling haven't helped. When I started getting problems on the bike someone suggested moving my cleats back a little, cured the problem overnight.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,

Pose method
Its not rocket science................


http://sportsscientists.com/2007/10/pos ... g-economy/
"Trying to make radical, wholesale changes to running technique is probably not the optimal way to go, for it simply transfers the point of loading on the skeleton to another area. Specifically, the research study discussed in Part III of the series (a study we were both involved in at UCT) found that 2 weeks of training caused the loading on the knee to be reduced, but the loading on the ankle increased.
This change in loading is linked to the numerous anecdotal reports of athletes developing Achilles tendon and calf muscle problems after learning Pose, anecdotes which were borne out by the follow up to that study (the part of the study that was never published, incidentally)
Our recommendation is to look for incremental changes in technique, rather than falling prey to common sense and sound biomechanics packaged as a miracle cure for injuries through marketing strategies"



"The conclusion
This study is an interesting one because it evaluates Pose from the other direction – having previously looked at injuries and kinetics, this looks at running economy, a basic but important variable. And Pose running does not, unfortunately, move it in the right direction.
This adds then to the argument that a wholesale change in running technique is unlikely to be the solution for most people, and we can only repeat the assertion from our series that says look at smaller changes, practical things and allow running technique to develop consciously, but not controlled."

I am not even going to mention the oxygen economy

Walking, running, cycling all relies on the feet, get that wrong and pain.............slow and give up.............................

[hamster]

105.48 per cent - saddle to pedal axle divided by inseam expressed as a percentage. This is considerably less than the recommended 109 per cent.

I am with 531colin on this.It's impossible to measure length to the level you suggest: 0.1% is less than 1mm, the thickness of your sock.

Magic formulae don't consider the relative length of thigh to shin, foot length or the angle of the pelvis. Definitely it's worth experimenting if you are uncomfortable.

There seems to be no decent justification for mythology like KOPS - it's probably a good starting point, but no more.

[531colin]

I'm convinced that saddle setback is much more to do with balance on the bike than pedaling ........(So is Steve Hogg..https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/seat-set-back-for-road-bikes/.....scroll to "balance point")
So to me the "justification" for KOPS is that it gets the majority of cyclists very close to "balance point".
But again, functionality is the key....set yourself up at KOPS, then try the balance point business.....take your hands off the bars, and see if you chin the bars!