Cycling UK Forum

RickH wrote:On the subject of 4WD & tyres, there's an Interesting comparison video on 2WD & winter tyres V 4WD here from Auto Express.

I had my own comparison in the snow a couple of weeks ago. Driving around snowed up backstreets in Glasgow. My fwd Octavia with all season tyres got me everywhere with no drama. The 4wd Octavia Scout with summer tyres I drove at work wasn't as good. Both cars pulled away OK. The Scout tended to skid easily on downslopes even braking from 2nd gear speeds.

Their test on 'jus cold and wet' roads was interesting as well, not quite as pronounced though.

The fact that the 4wd ended up in more trouble was noteworthy - it could just about get a few metres further, but then lost it and was sliding back uncontrollably

There are many reasons why 4x4s and crossovers are popular, beyond looks. The height gives you:

- Easier to get your child in and out of baby seats
- Less bending over to put shopping into the boot
- Less bending and crouching for elderly getting in and out
- Bigger boot (sometimes)
- Views over hedgerows
- Often extra comfort (travelling sofa) and roominess inside
- Extra towing capacity for caravans etc
- Yes, extra capability that one time in 100 years that someone actually takes it off road.

Yes, there are many disadvantages to them as we've all pointed out, and you can get combinations of the advantages with a people carrier or a tall small car like a Ford B-Max. But don't make lazy assumptions that anyone who buys an X5 did so purely for vanity.

I drive a Volvo estate currently on winter tyres and don't care that much for 4x4s, but I can see why people buy them.

Anyway, the post was originally about a hit-and-run. I'm hope the people they've arrested were the right people, since whoever did this needs to be put away for a very long time.

mark a. wrote:There are many reasons why 4x4s and crossovers are popular, beyond looks. The height gives you:

- Easier to get your child in and out of baby seats
- Less bending over to put shopping into the boot
- Less bending and crouching for elderly getting in and out
- Bigger boot (sometimes)
- Views over hedgerows
- Often extra comfort (travelling sofa) and roominess inside
- Extra towing capacity for caravans etc
- Yes, extra capability that one time in 100 years that someone actually takes it off road.

It's a great list. Against that can I suggest:-

- Use vastly more resources to construct.
- Use vastly more resources to run and most are diesel whose particulate matter has been shown to cause many thousands of premature deaths a year and to worsen respiratory illness in hundreds of thousands.
- Are much more likely to kill both pedestrians and the occupants of other vehicles in collisions due to their extra mass and poor pedestrian safety.
- Aren't that great at protecting their occupants since they're more likely to roll in an accident.
- The 'great' views encourage the drivers to look further up the road with the result they're often not 'seeing' stuff directly in front. As a consequence they're involved in more rear end shunts. (Not sure if this is still true, but last time I checked it was).
- Their ability to go 'offroad' combined with mass means they're much less likely to be stopped by kerbs, garden walls and even house walls when they do crash.
- Making them drive like cars means people drive them like cars despite the fact that the physics says "no".
- A surprising number of people who drive them seem to think that 4 wheel drive also gives them magically stopping power on ice in an emergency.

Just thought I'd add all that to balance up the "benefits" although I can see it's a tough one...

I've only, as far as I can recall, driven a 4x4 (SUV) once. This was the car we rented in the USA. Not the vehicle we had booked, but the only one they had available when we arrived at the car hire place, so I had no choice (they tried to surcharge me for the upgrade, but when I complained they refunded).

We were only there for just under two weeks, but during that time, as far as I could tell, it offered no advantage to us over a conventional vehicle. The drive quality was not much different to my hatchback at home. Not any more comfortable. Child seat - well I couldn't tell you, but in the days when our son was a small child we never had a problem getting him in and out of a child seat.

Seeing over hedgerows? Pass. There aren't that many hedgerows in the USA. Why would you want to (except, I suppose, when coming out at a junction)?

Bigger boot? I can get two bikes (wheels off) quite easily in the back of our hatchback, with the seats folded forward. As for shopping - well back in Blighty we do most of our shopping in cycle panniers .

Towing capacity? What you need is the engine power, not so much the shape of the vehicle.

Off road? Not me, thanks!

Towing capacity? What you need is the engine power, not so much the shape of the vehicle.

You forget regulations. The towing capacity of a vehicle is laid down by the manufacturer and the "proper" Landrovers are allowed a much larger weight (3.5t?) than my humble Passat, even if they have the same power or torque available.

beardy wrote:

Towing capacity? What you need is the engine power, not so much the shape of the vehicle.

You forget regulations. The towing capacity of a vehicle is laid down by the manufacturer and the "proper" Landrovers are allowed a much larger weight (3.5t?) than my humble Passat, even if they have the same power or torque available.

OK, you have me there: I've never driven a car with a trailer attached. But I see plenty of non-4x4s on the roads towing big caravans. Roma and other Travellers tend to use Transit-type vans anyway: they're a lot cheaper!

kwackers wrote:It's a great list. Against that can I suggest:-
...

Yes of course. I could come up with more disadvantages, and as I said I'm not a huge fan of them for the reasons you say and more.

But I was replying to your claim that people only buy 4x4s because of the show. I was saying why that's not (always) the case.

mark a. wrote:But I was replying to your claim that people only buy 4x4s because of the show. I was saying why that's not (always) the case.

Fair enough.

Obviously I can only speak from my experience - in particular of my neighbours whose 4x4 habits seem to stem from having a large expensive car on their drive (or more often on the pavement).
Although in all fairness there aren't as many as there used to be...

Towing capacity? What you need is the engine power, not so much the shape of the vehicle.

No. What you need is the ability to stop safely.

freeflow wrote:

Towing capacity? What you need is the engine power, not so much the shape of the vehicle.

No. What you need is the ability to stop safely.

Yes, one of the ways I judge whether someone is driving a large 4x4 for frivolous reasons is by looking at the back to see whether they have a tow hitch. If you are towing a heavy trailer (horse box / large caravan) you need a car that is heavy enough to be able to control the trailer under sudden braking on a descent. A lighter car would simply be pushed along by the trailer. The 4x4 part of it is almost irrelevant. It is the mass of the car and the capacity of the brakes.

I've towed caravans and trailers extensively for over 30years.All heavier trailers(over 900kg I think?) are braked so when the brakes are applied on the towing vehicle the trailer brakes on the overrun.Most caravans have a stabiliser fitted as standard these days.
UK law states the trailer mustn't be heavier than the towing vehicle,though the recommended ratio for occasional towing and the inexperienced,the trailer to be no more than 85% of the towing vehicle which gives a safer margin for error.
Towing vehicle power is of importance and can get you out of trouble but huge powerful 4x4's aren't needed for general towing duties.I've never towed with anything bigger than a 1.8l petrol and most of our caravans have been 1100 to 1350kg MGW,other than for work duties where I've had 2l petrol and 2.5l diesel Transits towing similar weights.
What I have noticed more in recent years are more bigger heavier twin axle caravans being towed with big 4x4's and surprisingly they tend to mostly be older retired couples with two berth fixed bed vans that seems a bit silly IMO as a fixed bed van means at least a 2m longer caravan,which obviously means a lot heavier van and thereby needs an extra axle.Therefore needs a much bigger towing vehicle and so they arrive at a big 4x4,which has to be driven without the the trailer attached for 90% of the time .
It takes me 5 minutes to convert the living space to a 1.8x2m bed(which is equally as comfy as our bed at home) in our caravan.

kwackers wrote:

mark a. wrote:There are many reasons why 4x4s and crossovers are popular, beyond looks. The height gives you:

- Easier to get your child in and out of baby seats
- Less bending over to put shopping into the boot
- Less bending and crouching for elderly getting in and out
- Bigger boot (sometimes)
- Views over hedgerows
- Often extra comfort (travelling sofa) and roominess inside
- Extra towing capacity for caravans etc
- Yes, extra capability that one time in 100 years that someone actually takes it off road.

It's a great list. Against that can I suggest:-

- Use vastly more resources to construct.
- Use vastly more resources to run and most are diesel whose particulate matter has been shown to cause many thousands of premature deaths a year and to worsen respiratory illness in hundreds of thousands.
- Are much more likely to kill both pedestrians and the occupants of other vehicles in collisions due to their extra mass and poor pedestrian safety.
- Aren't that great at protecting their occupants since they're more likely to roll in an accident.
- The 'great' views encourage the drivers to look further up the road with the result they're often not 'seeing' stuff directly in front. As a consequence they're involved in more rear end shunts. (Not sure if this is still true, but last time I checked it was).
- Their ability to go 'offroad' combined with mass means they're much less likely to be stopped by kerbs, garden walls and even house walls when they do crash.
- Making them drive like cars means people drive them like cars despite the fact that the physics says "no".
- A surprising number of people who drive them seem to think that 4 wheel drive also gives them magically stopping power on ice in an emergency.

Just thought I'd add all that to balance up the "benefits" although I can see it's a tough one...

An xkcd moment

https://xkcd.com/386/

I'm lost with the above post. I don't usually ask this, but this time perhaps, could we either get back on topic, or desist?

661-Pete wrote:I'm lost with the above post. I don't usually ask this, but this time perhaps, could we either get back on topic, or desist?

It's thread drift,it's an open forum,a clash of POV is bound to happen.