Cycling UK Forum

I spent a lot of time in the water while growing up. I’ve swum in lakes, abandoned quarries, various seas and oceans, reservoirs, rivers (even the mighty Amazon), etc. I’ve dived off boats and mucked about in the water.

I did have the odd scare in the water (once being carried out to sea by a rip current – I swam along the shore and was back on sweet terra firma in half an hour, so no harm done), but I agree with Annoying Twit that swimming feels safer than cycling. It feels as if you are in better control of the risks when swimming than when cycling on roads. The speeds are also much lower, so you don’t have the constant risk of breaking bones if your attention slips for a moment.

Still, I prefer cycling and consider it safe enough to be worth doing.

All bets are off if you swim or ride a bicycle while drunk.

TonyR wrote:Likewise most people swim in swimming pools where the fatalities are very low. The number that swim in open water is very small but that's where the majority of drownings occur so you must adjust your risk exposure to account for that.

I am adjusting my risk. I'm looking for examples of people like myself drowning in inland waters. There are enough people doing this type of swimming that should the risk be significant, that we would expect to see some drownings. I can't find any.

With all respect to the dead, I cannot find examples of inland open water drowning deaths that wouldn't be prevented by the precautions that I take. Unless I have an undiagnosed heart condition in which case I could go at any time.

I can find examples of cycling deaths that wouldn't be prevented by the precautions that I take.

Samuel D wrote:I spent a lot of time in the water while growing up. I’ve swum in lakes, abandoned quarries, various seas and oceans, reservoirs, rivers (even the mighty Amazon), etc. I’ve dived off boats and mucked about in the water.

I did have the odd scare in the water (once being carried out to sea by a rip current – I swam along the shore and was back on sweet terra firma in half an hour, so no harm done), but I agree with Annoying Twit that swimming feels safer than cycling. It feels as if you are in better control of the risks when swimming than when cycling on roads. The speeds are also much lower, so you don’t have the constant risk of breaking bones if your attention slips for a moment.

It is only quite recently that I learnt how to deal with a rip current. There was an awful lot of trips to beaches known to have rip currents when I was growing up, and I was at significant risk then. Now I know what to do and given my confidence in my swimming ability, would allow a rip current to take me offshore, wait until it dumps me, swim along the beach, and back. I do always swim between flags at beaches and discuss currents with lifeguards before swimming. They always tell me that there aren't any currents between the flags as they deliberately place the flags at places where there aren't.

Thanks for addressing my first post point. I feel the kind of swimming I do is about as safe as riding on paved dedicated cycle paths. Maybe a bit less safe than that example, but safer than being on the road. Like you, I feel better able to address and account for risks swimming, compared to mixing it on the road with cars who may SMIDSY me.

Still, I prefer cycling and consider it safe enough to be worth doing.

Please note that I very much consider cycling to be amply safe enough to be worth doing. Demonstrably so, I hope I'm just talking here about the comparison I make in the first sentence of my first post in this thread.

All bets are off if you swim or ride a bicycle while drunk.

Very much agreed. As well as multiplying the stupid, alcohol interferes with the body's ability to regulate temperature.

The risk associated with both activities is relatively low. Go out and enjoy them.

http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1026.html has a table showing relative risk per participant. That shows that swimming has a higher statistical risk than cycling. It cannot, of course, account for differences for a specific invidual or circumstance.

Vorpal wrote:The risk associated with both activities is relatively low. Go out and enjoy them.

I am very much doing so. 130km ride tomorrow. Hopefully in good shape for 2km swim (including 38km ride) on Sunday My partner is away for the weekend.

Vorpal wrote:http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1026.html has a table showing relative risk per participant. That shows that swimming has a higher statistical risk than cycling. It cannot, of course, account for differences for a specific invidual or circumstance.

Yes. My claim is based on me personally, and requires in-depth investigation of the statistics. While it may seem gruesome, I've looked at reports of a large number of swimming deaths. Doing so massively reduced my estimate of perceived risk of my swimming the way that I do.

It causes a lot of frustration among open water swimming communities that people apply stats to 'us' based upon 15 year old males who drink and then try to impress girls. Once I was manning a rescue boat on a lake when some teens decided to 'swim'. I drew near when one actually did get into 'difficulties' (tired) after swimming maybe twenty metres (!) He managed to get himself out, but it looked as if he had been in danger doing even that.

I don't know if cyclists feel that their safety is misdescribed by statistics that include too many 'drunken idiots' in the casualties.

Samuel D wrote:It feels as if you are in better control of the risks when swimming than when cycling on roads.

People are about 1000 times more sensitive to risk that's imposed on them by others than they are to risk they choose to subject themselves to.

axel_knutt wrote:

Samuel D wrote:It feels as if you are in better control of the risks when swimming than when cycling on roads.

People are about 1000 times more sensitive to risk that's imposed on them by others than they are to risk they choose to subject themselves to.

Which is why I would prefer to count casualties rather than base things in personal perception.

Annoying Twit wrote:
It is a problem for UK swimming that even people who should know what they are doing, e.g. the RNLI, don't usually. It goes beyond this thread, but they have made many pronouncements which are plain wrong. There are lots of claims of the risk to even 'the strongest' (I've seen this said) swimmer, but the stats don't bear this out. People who are experienced open water swimmers who approach the sport properly and follow basic safety guidelines drown extremely rarely. The reference to 'Olympic Swimmers' is odd, as there is no expectation that an Olympic swimmer would have any idea about open water swimming - they swim and train in pools which are very different. Conversely, skill in the pool may increase risk outside due to over-confidence. E.g. the typical hypothermia death follows this pattern.

Person gets into 15C water. Feels very cold.
After 20 minutes or so, they start getting used to it. The water doesn't feel cold any more.
They then decide to swim across the lake. The distance would be no problem in a much warmer pool.
Half-way across, they start feeling cold again, lose coordination, and panic.
Drown.

All of which indicates you are not familiar with the physiological problems involved. This website sets out the problem, which is one of the main causes of death in UK waters, and if you are not aware of it you should be.
http://www.coldwatersafety.org/ColdShock.html


[/quote]It doesn't help that the RLNI makes these pronouncements about 'even the strongest swimmers' because they aren't true. If they were true, then we'd be seeing these strongest swimmers drown. I've searched for strong swimmers drowning even if they followed safety guidelines, and I haven't found them. [/quote]

Here's how Duncan Goodhew and Sharon Davis cope in cold water. Are they strong enough swimmers for you? And cold water is cold water whether its the sea, inland water or a swimming pool. The body reacts the same regardless.

[youtube]_96YEPAdA2Y[/youtube]

You really should look up some of the very good material from around the world, not just the RNLI, about cold water shock.

TonyR wrote:
All of which indicates you are not familiar with the physiological problems involved. This website sets out the problem, which is one of the main causes of death in UK waters, and if you are not aware of it you should be.
http://www.coldwatersafety.org/ColdShock.html

You have the wrong end of the stick. Coldshock happens, but to what degree it happens depends on how used you are to cold water and what you do. Coldshock is a major cause of death in the UK because people who aren't experienced open water swimmers fall into the water by accident. I know what near freezing water feels like, and it is very, very, understandable to me that someone who doesn't know what to expect will immediately go into shock. However, that doesn't apply to the scenario I'm discussing, which is experienced and careful open water swimmers.

It doesn't help that the RLNI makes these pronouncements about 'even the strongest swimmers' because they aren't true. If they were true, then we'd be seeing these strongest swimmers drown. I've searched for strong swimmers drowning even if they followed safety guidelines, and I haven't found them.

Here's how Duncan Goodhew and Sharon Davis cope in cold water. Are they strong enough swimmers for you? And cold water is cold water whether its the sea, inland water or a swimming pool. The body reacts the same regardless.

The important point that you've missed is that the body reacts entirely differently depending on whether or not someone is used to swimming in cold water. The swimmers you describe are strong swimmers in a pool, but they are not used to swimming in cold open water. It's easy to spot that because they are experiencing cold shock in water temperatures of 10C. Though, the completely unrealistic sudden complete immersion does help promote that. It's like if we asked professional cyclists to deliberately ride into a wall, then use the fact that they injured themselves to claim that cycling is dangerous.

My request is not for someone to show me a 'strong swimmer' unused to cold water swimming who has experienced cold shock when dumped completely in water, but for an example of an experienced and knowledgeable open water swimmer who follows safety guidelines and has drowned. I haven't been able to find even one, and this is what I'm basing my estimates of safety on. So, no, those swimmers are not 'strong enough for me' as they aren't experienced open water swimmers in the temperature shown and they aren't shown performing actions similar to what careful open water swimmers do.

I'm familiar with the material you provide, and in fact saw that when it was first broadcast. It says nothing about my point, because experienced and careful open water swimmers (i) won't suddenly dump themselves completely in cold water and (ii) have a reduced or absent cold shock response because they're acclimatised to cold water swimming. I've swum in water of 0.5C without a wetsuit (though I rarely swim in cold without a wetsuit and hence am not acclimatised) and I won't experience cold shock. I will lose strength in arms and legs if I try to stay in too long, except that I know this and won't stay in too long. At 0.5C without a wetsuit, we're talking maybe 100m. Even at that temperature, hypothermia takes longer than that. 10-15 minutes. I know of people who can and do swim for tens of minutes at that temperature with no problems, because they have properly (and carefully) acclimatised to it, and know what they're doing. (E.g. the importance of internally generated heat.)

[youtube]_96YEPAdA2Y[/youtube]
You really should look up some of the very good material from around the world, not just the RNLI, about cold water shock.

I know about cold water shock. I'm saying that it is not a reasonable point to raise given my question because the kind of people I am discussing, experienced and careful open water swimmers, are fully aware of cold shock and acclimatised to the cold. Sudden dumping of people unused to the cold into cold water doesn't resemble what open water swimmers do. This can also be shown by the fact that experienced open water swimmers don't get cold shock to the degree demonstrated, if at all.

Brucey wrote:

pwa wrote:I've no statistics to back me up, but I've always felt that there is inherent danger in any activity that goes on in water. Canoeing, swimming, water skiing and so on. Any mishap that makes you lose consciousness during those activities puts your life in serious danger. But if you spend your life avoiding danger you have no life.

If you want a really dangerous activity, try horse riding. Or cutting the garden hedge.

why not combine both? 'underwater cycling'...!!

cheers

No joke - a couple of friends used to organise just this very thing as a race many years ago in a tidal swimming pool.
They were divers first rather than cyclists. The local tourist board loved the publicity and it got into the Guinness Book of Records.

Open water swimming for those over say 65 has special dangers especially for cyclists who have little body fat around the torso. It is easy to get hyperthermia if you stay in cold water for say 1 hour. I speak as a former active member of the Irish Long Distance swimming Association which does not allow the wearing of wetsuits for their events. I no longer swim in open water but I do cycle in excess of 10000 miles per year and swim indoors on days when there is frost on the roads.I agree with all the comments on the benefits of an active lifestyle. Whichever activity you chose it is sensible to keep your weight down and to avoid junk food and refined sugar. Sugar has insinuated its way into many everyday products.

Brucey wrote:why not combine both? 'underwater cycling'...!!
cheers

You mean something like this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7491518.stm

cooper_coleraine wrote:Open water swimming for those over say 65 has special dangers especially for cyclists who have little body fat around the torso. It is easy to get hyperthermia if you stay in cold water for say 1 hour. I speak as a former active member of the Irish Long Distance swimming Association which does not allow the wearing of wetsuits for their events. I no longer swim in open water but I do cycle in excess of 10000 miles per year and swim indoors on days when there is frost on the roads.I agree with all the comments on the benefits of an active lifestyle. Whichever activity you chose it is sensible to keep your weight down and to avoid junk food and refined sugar. Sugar has insinuated its way into many everyday products.

I've been interested in the BLDSA events, but the early in the year events are beyond what I'm capable of. From what you write, I'd say that we both know our limits. I was interested in the Colwick Park event this year as it allows wetsuits. However first it would cost me £70 or so to do the event given that I'd have to join. Secondly, while there is a wetsuit category, 5K would be borderline for me even in May if I couldn't wear my standard head thermal protection.

As a straightforward question, has anyone ever died during (or caused by) a BLDSA event? If so, what was the cause?

Open water swimming and cycling are similar in that the environment is potentially dangerous. E.g. for cycling, mixing it on a road with traffic combined with having to stay upright on two wheels despite that not being an inherently stable situation. However, the low death rate for both sports (particularly when serious participants are considered) shows that while there are inherent dangers, suggests that they are being addressed sufficiently by the majority of participants.

I suspect that most drownings in OW in the UK involve alcohol. Take that out of the equation and both activities, done sensibly are safe. I do both, am aware of the dangers of both every time I do them.

Double your fun. Ride to an Open water swim...

We swim at 2 main places, a small loch near Irvine, and off the Greenan Shore just south of Ayr. Water in the sea bottomed out at 7.3C, and is already on the way back up. Returning from our January 7.6C swim (Where we had to walk over ice to get to the sea at low tide...), I passed the swim loch at Irvine and it was completely frozen over. So while the loch is warmer in summer, it's colder this time of the year. By Sep, the weeds are becoming problematic and close to the surface. By mid/Late summer, Greenan Shore has jelly fish. All year round, the roads are full of idiot drivers. Nothing is completely safe, you have to manage your risks. We never swim alone, and most of the group also have tow floats, which as well as holding keys / glasses etc (and food / drink on long swims) can be used as buoyancy aids.