Why do some folk like cantilever brakes?

[531colin]

deleted

[edocaster]

.......I thought I was being smart by fitting road pad holders rather than have to fiddle with the smooth post cantilevers every time I changed a pad.

Unfortunately, the grub screw that holds the pad from sliding out backwards is blocked by parts of the canti (for the front brakes). So I still have to realign everything!

Ditch the grub screw. Drill the holder to fit an MTB type split pin.
(I once lost a pad which wasn't "retained")

or... simply undo the M6 bolt that holds the canti arm onto the boss, and pull the canti-arm forwards until you have good access. Just be sure to put the spring back into the correct hole in the boss when you are done.

cheers

Hmmm... it might just be easier to hack my 2 or 3mm hex keys shorter.

[Brucey]

could be, but then again if the inserts are a tight fit, it can be easier to change them in a loose arm than on the bike; you can use a set of grips to ease the new insert into position, for example.

cheers

[531colin]

deleted

[DaveP]

As I asked the question with no more pressing need than curiosity I would like to say "Thank You" to those who have contributed their thoughts.
I'm not sure what I was hoping for - I think I would have been quite pleased if someone had been able to say "In practice they are particularly good at..." but that doesn't seem to have been the case.
It seems that their compatibility with drop bar levers might be their biggest plus. I don't think that's a trivial matter - I'm aware that Travel Agents etc. are less than perfect in some situations and I have read quite recently that the Dia Compe levers designed to work with V brakes can have problems as well. But beyond that, it seems that if you have the knack of setting them up then you may well like them, and if you don't, not. I'm glad I'm not alone
But if I do ever find myself acquiring a bike fitted with them I'll probably give them another try rather than ditching them out of hand. Can't say fairer than that...

[reohn2]

As I asked the question with no more pressing need than curiosity I would like to say "Thank You" to those who have contributed their thoughts.
I'm not sure what I was hoping for - I think I would have been quite pleased if someone had been able to say "In practice they are particularly good at..." but that doesn't seem to have been the case.

For me canti's are OK,but there are much better systems,for rims and bigger tyres than 28's V's are much better.
That's the truth of it.

It seems that their compatibility with drop bar levers might be their biggest plus. I don't think that's a trivial matter - I'm aware that Travel Agents etc. are less than perfect in some situations and I have read quite recently that the Dia Compe levers designed to work with V brakes can have problems as well.

My post from another thread:-

... V's/wide tyres,.... can be used with STI's with a cable accelerator(Travel Agents).We've been using such a system on our Santana Tandem,(fitted as standard from new)for the last 10 years,which is a very capable braking system,so if it can stop a tandem capably the same system is good enough for a solo.
If people don't like to use road STI's they have three alternatives,Kelly's,DT's or Barend's with appropriate(Tektro)drop bar V brake levers without Travel Agents .

But beyond that, it seems that if you have the knack of setting them up then you may well like them, and if you don't, not. I'm glad I'm not alone

I don't think there's a knack,they're just a bit fiddly to get right and can need a bit of patience.But even when set up spot one they don't approach the stopping power of V's and are awful in very wet conditions.

But if I do ever find myself acquiring a bike fitted with them I'll probably give them another try rather than ditching them out of hand. Can't say fairer than that...

I think you're being very fair.

[Brucey]

As I asked the question with no more pressing need than curiosity I would like to say "Thank You" to those who have contributed their thoughts.
I'm not sure what I was hoping for - I think I would have been quite pleased if someone had been able to say "In practice they are particularly good at..." but that doesn't seem to have been the case.

maybe you missed the bit where I mentioned that (by varying the straddle geometry) you can vary the MA/clearance (to suit) with many cantilever brakes?

I don't know of any other brake type where you can set them up 'close and powerful' or 'more clearance with less MA' as you desire.

Of course this potential for adjustment is arguably a problem if you don't understand how to do it!

I have feeling that a lot of people who say they prefer Vs or DPs do so because (for good or ill) you can't change the MA by varying the setup in the same way!

cheers

[reohn2]

As I asked the question with no more pressing need than curiosity I would like to say "Thank You" to those who have contributed their thoughts.
I'm not sure what I was hoping for - I think I would have been quite pleased if someone had been able to say "In practice they are particularly good at..." but that doesn't seem to have been the case.

maybe you missed the bit where I mentioned that (by varying the straddle geometry) you can vary the MA/clearance (to suit) with many cantilever brakes?

I don't know of any other brake type where you can set them up 'close and powerful' or 'more clearance with less MA' as you desire.

Of course this potential for adjustment is arguably a problem if you don't understand how to do it!

I have feeling that a lot of people who say they prefer Vs or DPs do so because (for good or ill) you can't change the MA by varying the setup in the same way!

cheers

But do you go varying the MA on a regular basis?
Or do set the MA to as good as it gets?
I'd bet it's the second option and if so you then get used to that option by feel,which is what you do with any other braking system.
If you've more power at the lever as with V's you adapt your feel of the lever to that,whereas the power of canti's is limited by comparison.
However good the MA is with canti's it won't better V's,and in the wet canti's power diminishes further.

All of which leaves us with the only other plus canti's have,they're are a good match for road STI's,but V's can be made to work with STI's with TA's so where's the gain with cantis?
Drop the STI's for another gear change system(Kelly's,B/ends or DT levers) and there's Tektro RL520's dropbar V brake levers,which work very well IME.
All of which adds up to V''s being a better brake IMHO.

[Brucey]

But do you go varying the MA on a regular basis?
Or do set the MA to as good as it gets?
I'd bet it's the second option....

well you'd be wrong....

There are at least three different cable pull standards for brake levers that attach to dropped handlebars, and cantis can use a different setup for each, as well as benefitting from different setups when there are different brake blocks in use etc.

cheers

[mig]

my winter bike's cantis work okay even in the wet. we're not talking formula one car stopping power here but adequate for hurtling down hills and making the nasty turn at the bottom etc. i would like it if they didn't (intermittently) squeal like banshees but one can't have everything!

[meic]

All of my brakes are capable of howling like banshees.
Possibly drums are immune?

[reohn2]

But do you go varying the MA on a regular basis?
Or do set the MA to as good as it gets?
I'd bet it's the second option....

well you'd be wrong....

There are at least three different cable pull standards for brake levers that attach to dropped handlebars, and cantis can use a different setup for each, as well as benefitting from different setups when there are different brake blocks in use etc.

cheers

But you'd set each one up to suit it's particular lever,would you not?
ie; if lever 1 has cable pull A then you'd set the MA to suit it.
if lever 2 has cable pull B then you'd set the MA to suit it.
if lever 3 has cable pull C then you'd set the MA to suit it.

If so,that's basically what I meant.

V brakes need V brake pull levers which are better,much better stoppers than the best set up canti offerings,that's the point,ie; do you want canti brakes that need a bit of fiddling with to get reasonable stopping power,or a simple set up that beats the pants off canti's?

[Bmblbzzz]

I don't have an engineering, physics or maths background, so I had only a vague understanding of mechanical advantage. I looked it up and found I was right (vaguely at least) and also found the three classes of levers.
http://www.uark.edu/depts/aeedhp/agscience/simpmach.htm
Don't know why, but that was the first thing that google found me, and I can understand it so there it is!

Would I be right in thinking that whereas cantis and calipers are Class 1 levers, Vs are Class 2?

[MikeDee]

I spoke with the Santana tandems rep at a bike show recently about V brakes and STI shifters. He says they work fine with the newer type STI shifters that route the brake cables under the bar tape. The old ones with external cable routing need mini V's or Travel Agents. I just converted my touring bike from cantis to V's. I used Tektro V brake levers and RX-5 mini V's. They work much better than the cantis I had on before plus they were much easier to set up.

[DaveP]

maybe you missed the bit where I mentioned that (by varying the straddle geometry) you can vary the MA/clearance (to suit) with many cantilever brakes?

No, I didn't miss it, although I think its fair to say I probably didn't appreciate all the ramifications...
I have no difficulty in understanding that the position of the arms and the angle between them and the straddle cable will have a substantial effect on the force with which the rim will be gripped. I think I can see how the optimum geometry may be preserved as pad thickness varies, or when rim width is changed. Beyond that, I have never sat down to even think about what might be involved in getting a given brake to work with a differently configured lever so presenting the ease of changing clearances etc. as an advantage did rather pass me by initially, but I think I've got the gist from one of your more recent posts
But, if you'll forgive me for saying so, in my eyes, this all contributes to the flexibility of application - which I have acknowledged as a good thing.
I was wondering if there was some particular quality in use, such as power, ease of control, that sort of thing and no one seem to want to rhapsodise over them in quite that way. The verdict seems to be that they can work very well when properly setup - but the same can be said about most modern brakes.
And now someone has brought it up, I can remember the sound effects. Now that was special, but not necessarily in a positive sense!