Why do some folk like cantilever brakes?

[Brucey]

.....better stoppers than the best set up canti offerings,that's the point,ie; do you want canti brakes that need a bit of fiddling with to get reasonable stopping power,or a simple set up that beats the pants off canti's?

Hmm, by ' beat the pants off' you mean

- are hideously ugly
- squeal in a whole new range of ways
- have badly engineered springs that break more often than cantis
- have off-centre cable runs that foul on stuff when you turn the steering
- have centring screws that forever need attention
- have minimal running clearance to the rim
- have a crummy sheet metal part that is only ever about ten seconds away from bending open and causing your brake to fail completely
- don't have proper strain relief on the pinch bolt so the cable frays
- have noodles that let water inside (always) and rust or start to bind as soon as you look at them
- have arms on the front brake of a typical touring bike that hit the frame if the steering swings
etc etc

if so, I know exactly what you mean....

In fairness whatI'm driving at here is that there is no such thing as a perfect brake; what might suit some folk might not suit others so well.

I spoke with the Santana tandems rep at a bike show recently about V brakes and STI shifters. He says they work fine with the newer type STI shifters that route the brake cables under the bar tape. The old ones with external cable routing need mini V's or Travel Agents. I just converted my touring bike from cantis to V's....

I would suggest you try such a machine before you splash out on such a setup; the cable pull of 'New Super SLR' brake levers is certainly longer than those of previous brake levers for dropped bars/STIs, but IMHO it still isn't long enough for reliable operation with full-length Vs; this setup usually gives a mushy brake lever that will come back to the bar on a single wet descent, and a running clearance that is too small for most folk.

I think such levers may pair well with mini-ish Vs that are about 90 to 95mm arm length, but not so well with arms that are 110mm long.

Obviously if the bosses are at an unusual height on the frame, various odd combinations that shouldn't normally work well can do, so always check that after a test ride.

cheers

[531colin]

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[DaveP]

Dave, I don't know what you expect somebody to say?...
...I really don't see whats not to like about cantis.
Put the boot on the other foot, what is your favourite brake?
I bet somebody somewhere will rubbish it, whatever it is!

I used them for a few months. They were ok as brakes but I found them to be very frustrating to adjust and was happy to be able to replace them with something easier to setup. I was simply curious about why others had persevered - had I missed something?
I hope you don't seriously think that I'm "having a go" in any way - I've been quite open and honest about my motives.

I have a flat bar bike with full size V's and a drop bar bike with twin pivot callipers. And the tandem has a V at the front and a disc at the back. They all seem to work too...

[reohn2]

.....better stoppers than the best set up canti offerings,that's the point,ie; do you want canti brakes that need a bit of fiddling with to get reasonable stopping power,or a simple set up that beats the pants off canti's?

Hmm, by ' beat the pants off' you mean

- are hideously ugly

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Heaven forbid that someone somewhere could think canti's are as ugly as sin?

- squeal in a whole new range of ways

That depends on pads,BBB Tristops(my preferred choice) or Koolstop Salmons do a good job of stopping the squeal

- have badly engineered springs that break more often than cantis

Never had one break myself and never heard of anyone else I know having that problem,thugh TBF I haven't done a Google search.

- have off-centre cable runs that foul on stuff when you turn the steering

Another problem that's alien to me.

- have centring screws that forever need attention

IME set up once and forget or maybe need a tweak once in a blue moon.

- have minimal running clearance to the rim

Again I've never had a problem like that,though I like a leettle bit of free play in my brake levers before the pads hit the rim.

- have a crummy sheet metal part that is only ever about ten seconds away from bending open and causing your brake to fail completely

With cheap and nasty one's yes I'd agree,the answer to that is simple enough, don't buy cheap and nasty V brakes BTW there are some pretty dire cheap and nasty canti's out there don't forget.

- don't have proper strain relief on the pinch bolt so the cable frays

Something else I've never had a problem with.The pinch bolts on decent quality(Shimano) V's have always worked for me and seem a good anchor point YVMV.

- have noodles that let water inside (always) and rust or start to bind as soon as you look at them

I've had the odd noodle show a bit of surface rust,as for water ingress I can't say I've ever had that problem.But then if water gets in at the top it can get out at the bottom if you leave the silly rubber boot off,and I always put a leettle grease on the inner cable to give it a nice slippery surface on the plastic inner pipe,it also helps keep water out too .

- have arms on the front brake of a typical touring bike that hit the frame if the steering swings
etc etc

More chance of that with canti's,V's arms are more out of the way of such problems IME.

if so, I know exactly what you mean....

I don't think you do,in fact if I didn't know better I'd say you were biased in favour of canti's

In fairness whatI'm driving at here is that there is no such thing as a perfect brake; what might suit some folk might not suit others so well.

That's right there's always a fly in the ointment somewhere,though some brakes are nearer perfect than others,V's IME are a big improvement on canti's
YVMV.

[531colin]

deleted

[Brucey]

I agree that with any brake system there are problems that arise through poor conception and a whole different set of problems that arise through poor execution. Sorting the wheat from the chaff here is not always easy.

I don't have 'a downer' on V-brakes particularly ( I have several bikes with them fitted) but I am not blind to their conceptual shortcomings either. On many bikes you can turn the steering less than 45 degrees to the left (and a fair bit more to the right) before the noodle hits something and cause the brake to drag. Depending on how good the springs are the brake may or may not recentre itself afterwards.

R2 seems to think that it is possible for canti arms to hit the frame as the steering is turned. I've never seen this! However with Vs it can and does happen...

IMHO the most common problems reported with cantis are ones of execution rather than conception, as Colin suggests above.

If you want to see problems with execution with V brakes, just take a ride in any city where cycling is popular. I guarantee that it will only be a short time before you see a bike with defective brakes and it is odds on that the defective brakes will be 'V' brakes. Obviously the noodle bracket can fail (this part is very commonly made so badly it is bound to break) but it isn't always that; when the brakes manifest any flaw whatsoever, people unhook them and then leave them unhooked; they would sooner have no brakes rather than V-brakes!...

cheers

[Samuel D]

I think that’s because V-brakes have close pad clearances (especially with long pads toed in to avoid squeal) and a tendency to go off-centre, a combination that leads to frequent problems with brake rub.

The pivots corrode or get gummed up, leading to unpredictable friction there (can also be a problem with cantilevers), and the off-centre noodle and cable contribute to the brake’s tendency to go lopsided.

[531colin]

deleted

[reohn2]

I agree that with any brake system there are problems that arise through poor conception and a whole different set of problems that arise through poor execution. Sorting the wheat from the chaff here is not always easy.

But good quality brakes and regular maintenance can.

I don't have 'a downer' on V-brakes particularly ( I have several bikes with them fitted) but I am not blind to their conceptual shortcomings either. On many bikes you can turn the steering less than 45 degrees to the left (and a fair bit more to the right) before the noodle hits something and cause the brake to drag. Depending on how good the springs are the brake may or may not recentre itself afterwards.
R2 seems to think that it is possible for canti arms to hit the frame as the steering is turned. I've never seen this! However with Vs it can and does happen...

I've had a good few bike with V's and canti's and currently maintain 7 bikes in the extended family non of which suffer the problems you speak of.

IMHO the most common problems reported with cantis are ones of execution rather than conception, as Colin suggests above.

Which is because they're fiddly to set up and maintain.

If you want to see problems with execution with V brakes, just take a ride in any city where cycling is popular. I guarantee that it will only be a short time before you see a bike with defective brakes and it is odds on that the defective brakes will be 'V' brakes. Obviously the noodle bracket can fail (this part is very commonly made so badly it is bound to break) but it isn't always that; when the brakes manifest any flaw whatsoever, people unhook them and then leave them unhooked; they would sooner have no brakes rather than V-brakes!...

I'd say you're right but the reasons you're right are that V's are the default(cheaply made) brake for cheap supermarket £70 specials and many other cheap bikes,such bikes are ridden and IMO rarely maintained regularly.
The reason they unhook them and ride is because they either don't have enough mechanical knowledge to maintain them or won't spend on someone else doing it for them,and so ride without brakes,that's not the fault of V brakes but the people who own them and can't be bothered looking after them.
If canti's were the default supermarket special brake of choice,what's betting they'd be the same,only there'd be more owners doing end overs as the straddle wire caught up in the front(knobblie)tyre of the full sus £70 mudguardless beast?
If people thought bikes were worth more than £70 there'd be more well maintained bikes and brakes,because they'd value their use and reliability.As it is this is cheapskate UK where all too any people know the cost of everything but the value of nothing!

[Brucey]

I agree that with any brake system there are problems that arise through poor conception and a whole different set of problems that arise through poor execution. Sorting the wheat from the chaff here is not always easy.

But good quality brakes and regular maintenance can.

IMHO the most common problems reported with cantis are ones of execution rather than conception, as Colin suggests above.

Which is because they're fiddly to set up and maintain.

I have not found that and nor have many other people. Perpetuating such myths is not helpful.

Nor do such comments pay any heed to the fact that quite a few bikes have been supplied (from new, by the manufacturers) with brakes that are mismatched to the levers (in direct contravention of Shimano's recommendations), or supplied with the wrong length straddle cable, or badly spaced brake blocks, or badly prepped/specified cables etc etc etc. Yet in these cases received 'wisdom' invariably suggests that 'the brakes are no good' or somesuch errant nonsense.....

cheers

[colin54]

[quote=reohn2]The reason they unhook them and ride is because they either don't have enough mechanical knowledge to maintain them or won't spend on someone else doing it for them,and so ride without brakes,that's not the fault of V brakes but the people who own them and can't be bothered looking after them.
[/quote]

Here's a typical example;

[edocaster]

[quote=reohn2]The reason they unhook them and ride is because they either don't have enough mechanical knowledge to maintain them or won't spend on someone else doing it for them,and so ride without brakes,that's not the fault of V brakes but the people who own them and can't be bothered looking after them.

Here's a typical example;

P1060486 (640x304).jpg

[/quote]

Someone who values their rear wheel mostly!

But I am bemused when I see bikes like this (I.e. over often). Someone has taken the trouble to remove a cable from a pinch bolt and, in this example, brake shoes. Why don't they also remove the brake arms?

[reohn2]

Which is because they're fiddly to set up and maintain.

I have not found that and nor have many other people. Perpetuating such myths is not helpful.

And your job/profession is?
It's not a myth it's a fact that canti's need a bit of patience to set up,I'm pretty patient when working on the bike because I quite enjoy it,I have done all my life.
However I recognise that some(well quite a lot if I'm any judge)aren't as patient and don't have the mechanical aptitude I have,and I also reckon I don't have the mechanical aptitude yourself or Colin have when we get into the minutia of engineering.

I have a SinL whose on his way to his first million,a whizz at what he does,ask him to mend a puncture and could do it but wouldn't enjoy it one bit.
Ask him to set up canti's and he'd be lost,he'd probably go on Youtube set them up of a fashion but would miss the intricacies(and so would many more),I know he's watched me service his bike and thinks I'm a spanner god .
I talk to him about his work and I think the same about him(this is the important bit)in his field.
I can give many other examples.I've had people stare in wonderment when I've applied silicon sealant neatly around a bath/window or some such

Nor do such comments pay any heed to the fact that quite a few bikes have been supplied (from new, by the manufacturers) with brakes that are mismatched to the levers (in direct contravention of Shimano's recommendations), or supplied with the wrong length straddle cable, or badly spaced brake blocks, or badly prepped/specified cables etc etc etc. Yet in these cases received 'wisdom' invariably suggests that 'the brakes are no good' or somesuch errant nonsense.....

cheers

They/I do pay heed,but with all matching parts and everything set as it should be,V's beat canti's.
Here's the important bit again:- if canti's aren't set up juusstt right they're crap,whereas there's more latitude with V's if they aren't juusstt set up right they're still good .

That's a fact and if we bear in mind that not everyone is a keen and able bike mechanic that's how it is.
YVMV

[reohn2]

But I am bemused when I see bikes like this (I.e. over often). Someone has taken the trouble to remove a cable from a pinch bolt and, in this example, brake shoes. Why don't they also remove the brake arms?

It's a bet that the brake pads became loose so the owner rather than tighten up the bolt and set the pads up,due to a lack of mechanical aptitude or tools or couldn't give a monkee's attitude,unhooked the arms initially then either cut cable or wiggled it about at the pinch bolt until it broke off.
It's the Tesco pincipal,buy cheap buy one per annum
As Brucey says walk around any town centre there's quite few examples

[Brucey]

Which is because they're fiddly to set up and maintain.

I have not found that and nor have many other people. Perpetuating such myths is not helpful.

And your job/profession is?
It's not a myth it's a fact that canti's need a bit of patience to set up,I'm pretty patient when working on the bike because I quite enjoy it,I have done all my life....

I'm a materials scientist, but I was happily sorting my cantis out when I was a callow yoof, (and knew less than half of nothing about anything). They are not complicated things at all; by contrast sorting out indexed gears etc is far more difficult and fiddly work, which seemingly in no way deters people from the mechanical abominations of modern gearing....

cheers