pwa wrote:I think a minority of Leave supporters are voting that way because they dislike immigrants. The majority only dislike excessive immigration, not the people who happen to be the immigrants. In my discussions with other Leave supporters I have not heard a single bigoted comment. Disliking excessive immigration is not bigoted.
"excessive" = "uncontrolled" or not controlled by the people who live there.
I doubt the architects of the free movement of people ever envisaged what is happening now just as those who wrote about the right to bear arms ( in the USA ) thought of the current situation and period with machine guns
pwa wrote:I think a minority of Leave supporters are voting that way because they dislike immigrants. The majority only dislike excessive immigration, not the people who happen to be the immigrants. In my discussions with other Leave supporters I have not heard a single bigoted comment. Disliking excessive immigration is not bigoted.
"excessive" = "uncontrolled" or not controlled by the people who live there.
"Excessive" means more than we find acceptable. It's a numbers thing. So long as people do not blame the migrants themselves, or demonise them, it is not bigoted. I don't have negative feelings towards immigrants from Eastern Europe or anywhere else. The ones I know are good people. But I want the flow of new immigrants reduced. It's not about race or anything like that. I've spoken to others favouring Leave, and I've not heard any unpleasant stereotyping. I know the bigots exist, but they are not the bulk of the Leave vote. Happily, modern Britain is better than that. Ironically, stereotyping Leave supporters as bigots could itself be seen as bigotry.
pwa wrote:"Excessive" means more than we find acceptable. It's a numbers thing. So long as people do not blame the migrants themselves, or demonise them, it is not bigoted. I don't have negative feelings towards immigrants from Eastern Europe or anywhere else. The ones I know are good people. But I want the flow of new immigrants reduced. It's not about race or anything like that. I've spoken to others favouring Leave, and I've not heard any unpleasant stereotyping. I know the bigots exist, but they are not the bulk of the Leave vote. Happily, modern Britain is better than that. Ironically, stereotyping Leave supporters as bigots could itself be seen as bigotry.
Who is this we? You mean more than you and your fellow travellers find acceptable.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
People with a vote in the referendum. No need to argue if they are significant enough in number, we will find out by the weekend.
Don't you mean some people with a vote - not all with a vote think like that. Their side may well lose and we remain in the EU with free movement of people etc....
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
pwa wrote:"Excessive" means more than we find acceptable. It's a numbers thing. So long as people do not blame the migrants themselves, or demonise them, it is not bigoted. I don't have negative feelings towards immigrants from Eastern Europe or anywhere else. The ones I know are good people. But I want the flow of new immigrants reduced. It's not about race or anything like that. I've spoken to others favouring Leave, and I've not heard any unpleasant stereotyping. I know the bigots exist, but they are not the bulk of the Leave vote. Happily, modern Britain is better than that. Ironically, stereotyping Leave supporters as bigots could itself be seen as bigotry.
Who is this we? You mean more than you and your fellow travellers find acceptable.
Obviously, if I'm lucky "we" means the majority of the electorate. If I'm not lucky it just means a substantial minority. The democratic process will happen and we (all of us) will have to live with it.
PWA - Well you're probably talking to some very nice leave voters. Where I work those who say they're voting leave all say things about migrants and immigration with very bigoted phrases. Phrases like Polish <word questioning parentage> were used. I felt disgusted because they work and have a laugh with Polish colleagues. As soon as the topic turned to the referendum they changed to something distasteful like a flick of a switch.
It's not everyone who's like that among the leave voters I know. These are among the low pay, low education end of white British workers. Hard working in many cases but lazy ones too.
In the general population of leave voters there will be a wide spectrum of views over many topics relevant to this referendum. That's just like remain camp. I believe that there is more of a problem getting their message across positively for the leave camp than the remain camp.
First off there's an issue when your biggest argument or potential vote winner is about foreigners coming into our country. It's a difficult topic to debate for migration control without it edging towards divisive comments about other nationals. It is possible but it doesn't always happen because in no small part the contribution of my service issue.
The second issue is Farage. IMHO he's a toxic brand in the leave argument for a few reasons. He's prone to making comments when "tired". What I mean by that is he makes a really dodgy comment then retracts it after the furore has happened. IMHO he knows what he's doing, playing to his audience that is, get the uptight liberals around up and your right wing members will cheer you and vote for you. He's a figurehead for bigots even if he isn't. He's also got the whole hypocrisy thing going on too for people aware of his performance representing British constituents in European parliament. Complains about European noses in the trough but gets his EU salary and expenses. In fact he has even admitted one term or year he made £2 million on top of his.salary from expenses.
Another problem is they have a higher level of the unknown over the economy. There's a c4 debate now and the section of the debate focusing on the economy. The instant poll they had went crazy during that section of the debate. The leave side was doing well with the previous sections but as soon as the economy section came the remain jumped instantly by about the same level as the leave dropped. The undecided remained the same I think. IMHO that is saying people believe there is a good economic argument to remain or leave has a very weak argument economically. I think our it was a purely economic argument remain would be winning by a bigger margin.
In summary leave has a good argument with migration but it's hard to argue about without a risk of sounding a little bigoted, racist or on the edge of that. Their weakest argument is economic due to their low confidence in economic models that support their side. They've had too high a presence of a fringe politician, Farage, who has two arguments in his arsenal. He is anti-migration/immigrants and anti EU (despite being paid very handsomely by the European parliament). Put others on and leave him to speak to his UKIPers.
pwa wrote:"Excessive" means more than we find acceptable. It's a numbers thing. So long as people do not blame the migrants themselves, or demonise them, it is not bigoted. I don't have negative feelings towards immigrants from Eastern Europe or anywhere else. The ones I know are good people. But I want the flow of new immigrants reduced. It's not about race or anything like that. I've spoken to others favouring Leave, and I've not heard any unpleasant stereotyping. I know the bigots exist, but they are not the bulk of the Leave vote. Happily, modern Britain is better than that. Ironically, stereotyping Leave supporters as bigots could itself be seen as bigotry.
Who is this we? You mean more than you and your fellow travellers find acceptable.
Obviously, if I'm lucky "we" means the majority of the electorate. If I'm not lucky it just means a substantial minority. The democratic process will happen and we (all of us) will have to live with it.
Aren't you the chap who said in an earlier post you wouldn't accept the result of a vote that went against what you wanted?
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
I assume I shall spend today despairing at humanity, though I do that most days I'm honestly barely decided to vote in, my problem is not with Europe, my problem is with the masses of people who keep voting for bad governments and demanding to know why the government is bad...
pete75 wrote: Who is this we? You mean more than you and your fellow travellers find acceptable.
Obviously, if I'm lucky "we" means the majority of the electorate. If I'm not lucky it just means a substantial minority. The democratic process will happen and we (all of us) will have to live with it.
Aren't you the chap who said in an earlier post you wouldn't accept the result of a vote that went against what you wanted?
No. I said we would all have to live with whatever is voted for, but I would not vote again if asked to.
pwa wrote: Obviously, if I'm lucky "we" means the majority of the electorate. If I'm not lucky it just means a substantial minority. The democratic process will happen and we (all of us) will have to live with it.
Aren't you the chap who said in an earlier post you wouldn't accept the result of a vote that went against what you wanted?
No. I said we would all have to live with whatever is voted for, but I would not vote again if asked to.
if memory serves me correctly I think your exact words were I would not accept the result.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Just to balance out one tiny point that Tangled Metal made (among other things I agree with, or partly agree with) i don't think it is right to portray low paid, low skilled Leave supporters as bigots. TM has experience of some that are, but I have experience of some that are not. The ones that I know actually display some fellow feeling for East Europeans migrating in search of work.
Referendum Day is here and I have voted (for the option chosen by my daughter) and I'm not worrying about the result. It will be what it will be, and life will go on. And the sun is out.
pwa wrote:Just to balance out one tiny point that Tangled Metal made (among other things I agree with, or partly agree with) i don't think it is right to portray low paid, low skilled Leave supporters as bigots. TM has experience of some that are
IF TM has experience of some that are bigots then he's right to portray them as such.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
I'm honestly barely decided to vote in, my problem is not with Europe, my problem is with the masses of people who keep voting for bad governments and demanding to know why the government is bad...