Cycling UK Forum

Now I know we live in a democracy with fair and open elections. However we get given a pencil for making our cross. I'm confident that systems are in place to prevent.tampering with the ballot papers, but why make it easier?

Does anyone else think they should provide ink pens?

PS I annoyed the staff at my polling station by asking for a pen. I got a whole lecture about how the votes are handled. How tampering wasn't possible. Doesn't mean they shouldn't use pens.

I raised that question in another thread here and a video seemed to suggest was to prevent some one replacing the pens with ink that might vanish or self destruct and so in validate the particular vote?

No, pens shouldn't be provided instead of pencils. How do you know which chemical composition of ink has been used? How do you know it's not going to accidentally leak everywhere and spoil your ballot? How do you know, 100%, that it will even work?

Pencils don't leak. They don't dry up. Their mark doesn't fade (anyone who says that they can be erased has forgotten that it's impossible to 100% erase a strong pencil mark, so if you are really that concerned then press down hard).

It's good to see skepticism about the voting process, in fact it's one area where paranoia is justified, but the current method has evolved over centuries to withstand large scale fraud. Having said that, if you really want to use a pen then knock yourself out. Just remember to replace the tinfoil cap

The idea that anyone is tampering with votes by rubbing out the pencil X is utterly dotty. Leaving aside the thousand other reasons why it'd be practically impossible … just think for ten seconds how much time it would take to alter enough ballots to make a difference. Hours, if not days. Historically, actual vote-rigging is done by magically "discovering" boxes stuffed with favourable votes or "losing" boxes from areas known to vote unfavourably. But the idea of actually editing individual ballots on the eraser-and-pencil level is tinfoil-hat-brigade stuff.

Today was my first time voting and honestly I expected security of sorts, instead their were two women at a desk in a room, that was it, they barely even spoke to me and didn't seem to care what was happening, so for me personally how my ballot was marked was the least of my worries considering anyone could have walked in there and taken that box, but then again, I am paranoid at the best of times

What surprises me about voting in person is that there is no kind of check to prove you are who you say you are, just a polling card that could have been stolen in the post.

Postboxer wrote:just a polling card that could have been stolen in the post.

Polling card not required, just go in give name and address and vote, that's it, no ID, no checking. The only safeguard is that that information can only be used once. What happens if someone else come in claiming to be someone who's already voted?

I don't know what happens, someone on Facebook said they were told they'd already voted so I think calls were made and they were allowed to vote on a different slip that went into an envelope rather than the ballot box, don't know what happens after that though. I suppose there's no easy way of tracing the fraudulent vote though.

Postboxer wrote:I don't know what happens, someone on Facebook said they were told they'd already voted so I think calls were made and they were allowed to vote on a different slip that went into an envelope rather than the ballot box, don't know what happens after that though. I suppose there's no easy way of tracing the fraudulent vote though.

Yes there is. Every voting slip has a number. When you vote the slip number is recorded against your name.

"Someone on Facebook" is hardly a reliable source of info though.

pete75 wrote: Every voting slip has a number. When you vote the slip number is recorded against your name.

No it's not.

You go into the polling station and there are three people officiating.
Well, that's the way ours works.

Person1 takes your polling card and crosses you off the name and address electoral role list, then reads your polling number to Person2 who crosses the number off the numbers list.

Person3 hands you a voting slip.
Yes, those are serialised, but the cross-referencing isn't done.
You could go in as a group and swap voting slips if you wanted.

All the serial numbers are there for is to check that people haven't made their own.

Mick F wrote:

pete75 wrote: Every voting slip has a number. When you vote the slip number is recorded against your name.

No it's not.

You go into the polling station and there are three people officiating.
Well, that's the way ours works.

Person1 takes your polling card and crosses you off the name and address electoral role list, then reads your polling number to Person2 who crosses the number off the numbers list.

Person3 hands you a voting slip.
Yes, those are serialised, but the cross-referencing isn't done.
You could go in as a group and swap voting slips if you wanted.

All the serial numbers are there for is to check that people haven't made their own.

Well our polling station has two people there. The serial number is recorded against the voter's name.

Read the third paragraph down http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/council/ele ... voting.htm


Why is my name marked in the register and why is my number written down before I am allowed to vote?

Every ballot paper has a unique serial number and by law, a record is kept of every serial number issued to every voter. The copy of the register used in the polling station is already marked to show who has a postal or proxy vote. The poll clerk on duty will put a small mark against your name to show you have voted and to make sure that nobody tries to vote at the station pretending to be you.

At the close of poll the documents which list the serial numbers of the ballot papers and who they have been issued to are sealed in special packets and cannot be opened without a court order. The reason for this is to enable checks should a legal challenge be made to the result of the election.

It is very rare for the documents to be examined except in cases where fraud or impersonation (i.e. someone voting illegally on someone else’s behalf) are being investigated. Because of the above safeguards, it is virtually impossible for any person to be in a position to marry up the voter to a particular ballot paper. For that reason, voters can be confident that the ballot remains secret. Voters have no grounds to fear that the way in which they voted could be detected, except under the very special circumstances outlined above.

So the person on facebook, who was a friend of a friend, their vote, which apparently went into an envelope, what do you think they do, only consider it if there's a very close vote? At which point, they count it then have to trace the fraudulent one?

In my case, feet.

Thanks Pete.
I live and learn.

This is the nub of it:

At the close of poll the documents which list the serial numbers of the ballot papers and who they have been issued to are sealed in special packets and cannot be opened without a court order. The reason for this is to enable checks should a legal challenge be made to the result of the election.

I think this is fair enough.
Any arguments, and it can be sorted.

Tangled Metal wrote:Now I know we live in a democracy with fair and open elections. However we get given a pencil for making our cross. I'm confident that systems are in place to prevent.tampering with the ballot papers, but why make it easier?

Does anyone else think they should provide ink pens?

PS I annoyed the staff at my polling station by asking for a pen. I got a whole lecture about how the votes are handled. How tampering wasn't possible. Doesn't mean they shouldn't use pens.

Pens are not provided:
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