Road Tax ("car' tax) v Council Tax

[RodWatts]

That old chestnut, sorry!
I thought I new the answer to this one, did a search but was confronted with 10k hits so....

I got into a 'discussion' with a neighbour (rather a Mr I'm right and you're wrong character) about who pays for and who maintains our roads (specifically Surrey)

I understand that Road Tax (VED) goes directly into the government purse to be spent on what ever is thought appropriate (e.g health, education, etc) but only a small amount on roads (motorways, trunk roads?)
TfL and the local council being responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of the roads in general and raising most of the cash.
"Ah, but not 'A' roads" was his answer and was not to be moved from that idea. Surely only motorways and trunk roads are government responsibility.

I think I've got the road maintenance bit right but stand to be corrected, so what is the proportion of government funding going into the road maintenance and how much from TfL and council tax.

Thanks
Rod


Thanks
Rod

[Paulatic]

Highways England look after Mways and major A roads
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisat ... ys-england
This is who pays
http://ipayroadtax.com/no-such-thing-as ... -road-tax/

[Tonyf33]

VED is an emissions tax, it's got nowt to do with road maintenance, tell your neighbour his 'tax' is an insufficient amount that goes towards the cost of tens of thousands of premature deaths caused by motorvehicle emissions and also the damage those emissions do elsewhere.

[MikeF]

You could also tell him that not all cars are charged VED - only the higher emission internal combustion engine ones. However there is also a fuel (petrol, diesel etc.) tax with VAT, which cyclists or pedestrians don't pay, and that goes into the general tax pool. Also point out that cyclists cause almost negligible damage to the carriageways compared with motor vehicles so if they do pay, they should pay only a tiny amount - what tiny figure would your neighbour like to suggest?

[gaz]

Highways England look after Mways and major A roads

Map, about 2% of England's road network.

[Cunobelin]

It depends on how you calculate the "real cost" of motoring

An environmental organisation tends to load with everything, and motoring organisations minimise what is included.

Do you include "Policing" "cost to industry of delays", "cost of pollution"

What was common is that if you start looking at reality there is a shortcoming of up to £1,000 per vehicle subsidy

As for VED, the income is circa £5.4 Bn, and the road building costs alone are about £9 Bn, far in excess of the VED income

[Cunobelin]

.... also don't forget that in addition to the Government direct costs, there are always massive grants and payments to local Councils for road building, repairs and maintenance

These should also be taken into consideration

[ThePinkOne]

Some A roads are funded centrally, if trunked. The "county roads" are maintained by the local authority.

The LA gets about 80% of funds (for all of its activity) from what used to be called the "revenue support grant" from central govt, I.e. from general taxation. The remainder is raised locally from council tax and business rates.

There is no hypothecation of "road tax" or of tax on fuel. It all goes into the general taxation pot.

Also note that some LAs have the contract as the Trunk Road Agency so maintain the Trunk roads with specific highways agency funding (or funds from devolved govt in Wales and Scotland).

The proportion of central govt grant vs local taxation may have changed slightly since I worked for a Highways dept in local govt, but so far as I understand it, the funding system is basically the same.

Suggest your neighbour needs to learn how roads are funded. The fact is that roads get less cash as govt cuts funds to LAs and of course the demand for road funding competes with demands for education and social care funding. If your neighbour wants more spent on roads, that will require higher tax or schools closing or less social care etc.

TPO

[Tonyf33]

I'd like to see a levy aginst those freeloading vehicles that currently don't pay anything despite clearly having emissions coming from their vehicle or contributing to it elsewhere. The joke of it is that there was never any need to make an incentive as drastic as the one done, economics alone and the desire to get better mpg/cheaper motoring was always going to change the habits/choice of the majority.

The sad thing is my 15 year Passat Estate doing circa 3,000 miles per year will from cradle to grave produce much less nasty emissions than the oh so righteous <100g/km lot doing 10k a year and swapping motors every few years. And yet I'm the one being financially and likely soon to be geographically penalised
Now that that old pony of paying no 'road tax' can't be shoved down your throat it's the yopu've got no insurance, despite the million or so uninsured drivers, the calls for testing - again despite the swathes of unlicensed drivers, and also the you're in the middle of the road nonsense that is being spewed ever more frequently.

[reohn2]

All the above information true though it is,will bounce off the ear drums of the vast majority of motorists,as they perform the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting la,la,la, until they can make themselves believe it isn't so.
They will also sit in a traffic jam for sometimes much longer than their most polluting sub 5mile round trip journey would take them to cycle,in the belief it's their right to clog up all the local roads and cause such pollution and disruption,because they paid for it and they can.
And worse still,that they have preference over cyclists riding the same route,so much so that some feel it's their right to bully and intimidate cyclists out of their way.
All this will happen whilst the authorities stand by and do nothing to stop it or even attempt to minimise it.

[blackbike]

VED, or 'road tax' is simply a tax like others levied by central government. VED isn't used for roads any more than the tax on beer is used to help the brewing industry. All tax revenues go into a big pot called the Consolidated Fund, the government's bank account.

[MikeF]

All the above information true though it is,will bounce off the ear drums of the vast majority of motorists,as they perform the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting la,la,la, until they can make themselves believe it isn't so.
They will also sit in a traffic jam for sometimes much longer than their most polluting sub 5mile round trip journey would take them to cycle,in the belief it's their right to clog up all the local roads and cause such pollution and disruption,because they paid for it and they can.
And worse still,that they have preference over cyclists riding the same route,so much so that some feel it's their right to bully and intimidate cyclists out of their way.
All this will happen whilst the authorities stand by and do nothing to stop it or even attempt to minimise it.

But.. but.. but.. You're wrong! They don't - it's everyone else who clogs the road. You don't want cyclists travelling faster than cars. After all they are slower and cause congestion for the faster motorist who pays.

The way to make people see reality is to let the whole road system clog up. It's nearly that way now. When everyone returns from work there's hardly enough space to accommodate all the vehicles in residential roads. The hard shoulders on motorways, put there for safety/emergency use, are now being used as an additional lane - it shouldn't take long before traffic levels build up to block them.

[Cunobelin]

I'd like to see a levy aginst those freeloading vehicles that currently don't pay anything despite clearly having emissions coming from their vehicle or contributing to it elsewhere. The joke of it is that there was never any need to make an incentive as drastic as the one done, economics alone and the desire to get better mpg/cheaper motoring was always going to change the habits/choice of the majority.

The sad thing is my 15 year Passat Estate doing circa 3,000 miles per year will from cradle to grave produce much less nasty emissions than the oh so righteous <100g/km lot doing 10k a year and swapping motors every few years. And yet I'm the one being financially and likely soon to be geographically penalised
Now that that old pony of paying no 'road tax' can't be shoved down your throat it's the yopu've got no insurance, despite the million or so uninsured drivers, the calls for testing - again despite the swathes of unlicensed drivers, and also the you're in the middle of the road nonsense that is being spewed ever more frequently.

We used to have a "Road Tax" aficionado at work, who reckoned that he had all the rights over cyclists including priority on the road, because he paid and they didn't

One lunchtime he was spouting off gain, when I challenged him over his car. Then pointed out that because of my wife's wheelchair we had a much bigger car with higher emissions,and as a result paid MORE "road tax" than him.

Logically therefore if he had priority over cyclists because he paid more than them, he would now be getting out of MY way, because I paid more than him....... and had more rights than him

Apparently it only applies to cyclists!

[djqster]

VED, or 'road tax' is simply a tax like others levied by central government. VED isn't used for roads any more than the tax on beer is used to help the brewing industry. All tax revenues go into a big pot called the Consolidated Fund, the government's bank account.

But that's changing. As of 2020 VED goes to a ring-fenced roads fund.
Imagine the fun when they spend some of it on cycle lanes...

[reohn2]

VED, or 'road tax' is simply a tax like others levied by central government. VED isn't used for roads any more than the tax on beer is used to help the brewing industry. All tax revenues go into a big pot called the Consolidated Fund, the government's bank account.

But that's changing. As of 2020 VED goes to a ring-fenced roads fund.
Imagine the fun when they spend some of it on cycle lanes...

Dream on!