Knee bend

[pjclinch]

Still, if you set your saddle so low that you could put both feet on the ground when you stop without getting out of the saddle - a couple of inches lower than you set your saddle, which is what I thought mercalia was referring to, you don't think you would cause any harm to your knees?

This describes pretty much everyone who's learning to ride a bike. As an instructor I'd think someone would have brought it to my attention to get saddles up if having them that low was causing genuine harm to knees (I try and get them moving up because it's just easier to pedal the bike for almost everyone, especially if they'll be riding for more than a minute or two). But there has never been any such advice in the 12 years I've been a CT.

Also - technique - I strongly believe that you should pedal 'foot level', the way you and I have learned to pedal, not 'toe down'. After all, when we walk we don't walk on tiptoes, do we? Still, there are evidently TdF riders who would beg to differ. But I still think they're wrong.

Take away people's shoes with an artificially stacked heel and people tend to walk far more on the balls of their feet. Heel strike as most people do is a combination of extra cushioning and the heel being effectively moved down, so that's not actually the best analogy. Furthermore, if you want to compare it to walking, not only remove your shoes but try doing it with a level foot through the whole gait cycle. Almost everyone naturally pushes off from their toes. is this relevant to cycling? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it warrants at least a caution from the Bad Analogy Police...

The more I see of the differences in people the more I'm convinced that there isn't One True Way to do very much (compare and contrast the Best Way To Get Up a Hill Fast if you're Alberto Contador or Chris Froome, both of whom are known for being outstandingly good at it, for example). The typical rule of thumb for saddle height is a good start, but it's a start and not the end. Some find their bodies are happier if it's lower, some if it's higher. While the overall build of their knee will conform to a similar blueprint the exact positioning and relative strengths and lengths of muscles, ligaments tendons and bones etc., and the gaits (walking and cycling) they've grown up used to dealing with, will mean they probably don't work exactly the same.

Pete.

[mercalia]

I asked this question as I wondered whether it was some thing to do with being able to pull up not just push down that spd/cleats give you and wondered if you needed a rather bent knee for this? I would feel very cramped if I had my legs at the angles I seem to have seen - I have just put my saddle up quite a bit & less of an angle than before at the knees ( has by the way solved an irregular knee issue I was having ). almost straight now & I can almost stretch my legs now which feeds good. The people in question going much faster than I was ever able to go, youngish commuters all I suppose

[531colin]

I asked this question as I wondered whether it was some thing to do with being able to pull up not just push down that spd/cleats give you and wondered if you needed a rather bent knee for this? I would feel very cramped if I had my legs at the angles I seem to have seen - I have just put my saddle up quite a bit & less of an angle than before at the knees ( has by the way solved an irregular knee issue I was having ). almost straight now & I can almost stretch my legs now which feeds good. The people in question going much faster than I was ever able to go, youngish commuters all I suppose

"pulling up" on cleats is largely a myth. Out of the saddle I pull up a bit from the bottom to maybe halfway up. Sitting down "forcing the gear" (that is slow cadence, high force) I push the pedals forward over the top and pull back at the bottom.
Are these young, fast commuters on modern road bikes? Do they pedal toe down with bent knees?

[Brucey]

.... As an instructor I'd think someone would have brought it to my attention to get saddles up if having them that low was causing genuine harm to knees (I try and get them moving up because it's just easier to pedal the bike for almost everyone, especially if they'll be riding for more than a minute or two). But there has never been any such advice in the 12 years I've been a CT.....

the primary purpose of CT is to avoid getting killed in traffic. If your saddle is too low it won't kill you whilst you are learning to negotiate traffic and handle the bike, so it isn't a priority during training, whilst being able to put your feet down is (to start with) fairly helpful.

However, if you do enough miles with a low saddle, you most definitely do run a real risk of ending up with unevenly developed leg muscles and this can cause knee problems, ranging from mild to severe.

The most common issue is that the patella gets pulled outwards because one of the two muscles that connect to it isn't well-used until the leg is fully extended, and doesn't strengthen at the same rate as the other one when you ride with a low saddle.

I have seen this afflict dozens of keen cyclists and I have even suffered from it myself. There are two easy 'cures'; one is to do some other exercises that allow the leg to fully extend, and the other is to raise the saddle slightly. The latter doesn't always fix the problem, but can certainly act as an ounce of prevention against a recurrence.

cheers

[pjclinch]

I asked this question as I wondered whether it was some thing to do with being able to pull up not just push down that spd/cleats give you

As Colin notes, it's a bit of a myth. Clips/straps and SPuDs etc make "pedaling in circles" easier by helping to tame the flat spots with the cranks vertical by letting you push forwards as well as just down, and keeping your feet in place if you unweight the rear pedal as it moves up (not really an active pull aside from short bursts where you might be really trying and actively concentrating on doing it).

My hack bike has single-sided SPuD-u-likes so I can ride it with cycling shoes or without. I don't feel any need to move the saddle if I switch shoes.

Pete.

[mercalia]

I asked this question as I wondered whether it was some thing to do with being able to pull up not just push down that spd/cleats give you and wondered if you needed a rather bent knee for this? I would feel very cramped if I had my legs at the angles I seem to have seen - I have just put my saddle up quite a bit & less of an angle than before at the knees ( has by the way solved an irregular knee issue I was having ). almost straight now & I can almost stretch my legs now which feeds good. The people in question going much faster than I was ever able to go, youngish commuters all I suppose

"pulling up" on cleats is largely a myth. Out of the saddle I pull up a bit from the bottom to maybe halfway up. Sitting down "forcing the gear" (that is slow cadence, high force) I push the pedals forward over the top and pull back at the bottom.
Are these young, fast commuters on modern road bikes? Do they pedal toe down with bent knees?

normally too far away to see - I normally see them when I am at Sainburys other side of the road ( main London rds are very wide here ) but I will be a bit more attentative, though I wouldnt know a modern road bike if I saw one;, quite a few riders seem to use single gear bikes and few seem to be new in the sense that say "steal me"