** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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pete75
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby pete75 » 14 Jul 2018, 9:06am

Mick F wrote:I wonder how many voters vote without thinking?



17,410,742 in the EU referendum. :lol:

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Vorpal » 14 Jul 2018, 9:11am

meic wrote:
How about making university education tuition-free? Other countries manage to do it.

Is there any difference other than the terminology?

In the UK you have student loan and pay back at say 2-7% of your earnings on top of 20% income tax.
Swedes have a lowest tax rate of 29%.

Yes, there is.

For one thing, in Sweden, university education is entirely free up through obtaining a PhD. For another thing, PhDs come with a stipend, at a substantial level of pay, well above British average salary.

For a third thing, the Swedish tax rate includes national insurance, so it's not really reasonable to compare that to Btitish tax rates, which are solely income taxes, with the national insurance taken out separately.
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 14 Jul 2018, 9:57am

For a third thing, the Swedish tax rate includes national insurance, so it's not really reasonable to compare that to Btitish tax rates, which are solely income taxes, with the national insurance taken out separately.


That is an entirely valid point. I am not bothered enough to do the maths to see whether and for what pay ranges you end up paying back more for your degree in the two countries, the figure I gave for Sweden was the lowest tax rate, Google starts with a figure nearer to 60% than 30%.

I dont know if the Swedish tax figures include or exclude health care payments, is our additional NI payment matched by an insurance payment over there? Sweden was a country chosen from pretty much thin air, plenty of other countries to compare to.

I still stand by the premise that higher education is effectively as free here at the point of undertaking it as it is anywhere else, you just end up paying it back in your taxes on any higher wages. Our system is a bit fairer in that those who directly benefit from it pay back directly and those who indirectly benefit from it pay back indirectly. It is a bit less fair that somebody who doesnt use their degree in generating future wealth still ends up paying for it from their good wages from other sources.
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Cugel
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 14 Jul 2018, 10:06am

Mick F wrote:Chatting to a friend yesterday and we got onto Brexit.
She voted to remain and I asked her why.

She said that she didn't really know and just thought it would be good to carry on like before. Status quo?
We had a good discussion after that, and within ten minutes, she agreed with me that we should be out and she'd voted without thinking.

I wonder how many voters vote without thinking?


It used to surprise me that people pretend to themselves that they know the future, especially when their claimed ability to do so rests in a second pretence that they understand the details and ramifications of such a vast and complex thing as international relations and the national socio-political institutions participating therein. I am no longer surprised as modern humans seem stuffed to the gunnels with hubris.

So, I feel that your friend has a far more sensible, realistic and honest approach to the Brexit question than you do. She is essentially careful and conservative in that she senses that breaking up the complex internetworking arrangements with the EU will have, for both the EU and Britain, far more unintended and unknown consequences than the imagined "advantage" of "taking back control" and other neoliberal utopian pipe dreams involving bonfires of regulations, rights and other drag-anchors on the rabid activities of fat cats and their hooray-henry enforcers in parliament.

Destruction of a thing rarely produces more or better than the maintenance of a thing. ..... Unless you're happy to pay the price of wholesale degradation of the current socio-political ecology to make room for another arising from the ashes - which may or may not be "better" than that destroyed.

Cugel, preferring evolution to revolution.

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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 14 Jul 2018, 10:17am

How much you value the status quo rather depends on where you fall on the hierarchy of benefiting from it. Which is an alternative answer to why leave voters were predominantly from the lower social economic classes contrasting the commonly given one that such people are less able to reach a sound conclusion.

The EU wasnt entirely a status quo though, was it? It was forever morphing into something else and there was a stated intention that it should morph into an ever closer Europe.

Leave was probably seen by its voters as being the more Conservative option retaining the nation status rather than morphing into the New European Order.
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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 14 Jul 2018, 10:38am

We had a good discussion after that, and within ten minutes, she agreed with me that we should be out and she'd voted without thinking.


Mick, You dont think there is any chance that she just said that as a quick, expedient way of moving the conversation on to something more entertaining? Or less controversial.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 14 Jul 2018, 10:46am

Mick F wrote:Chatting to a friend yesterday and we got onto Brexit.
She voted to remain and I asked her why.

She said that she didn't really know and just thought it would be good to carry on like before. Status quo?
We had a good discussion after that, and within ten minutes, she agreed with me that we should be out and she'd voted without thinking.

I wonder how many voters vote without thinking?

Without wanting to press you too hard, you stated up thread that your reason for wanting to leave was a " loss of sovereignty".

So I wondered if you brought any other argument to your discussion?

I for one don't buy the sovereignty issue.

We have continued, by and large, to make our own laws and certainly have had the freedom to vote leave!

Not that I personally set that much store by the Sovereign or the UK status quo come to that.

I see the EU a a group of very diverse nations trying to sit around a table to thrash out compromise for mutual benefit.
I think we have benefitted financially and culturally and whilst not perfect, as you know, I believe we should have stayed around that Brussels table and found common cause.

Furthermore, it would seem that we are now likely, nay being actively encouraged, to lose "sovereignty" in another direction, ie. to Trump's USA as an alternative!
With it's lower food and animal welfare laws.
And general Murdoch cultural paucity.
It has become a place far stranger to me than Europe.

The prospect fills me with dread and I start seriously to consider moving from my beloved UK, to Europe, while I still can.

djnotts
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby djnotts » 14 Jul 2018, 11:13am

"Furthermore, it would seem that we are now likely, nay being actively encouraged, to lose "sovereignty" in another direction, ie. to Trump's USA as an alternative!
With it's lower food and animal welfare laws.
And general Murdoch cultural paucity.
It has become a place far stranger to me than Europe."


Just so. Add "....animal AND PEOPLE welfare laws..."

Trump views human rights as a hindrance to profits (for the few) and that's the very reason that the Leave backers want out of EU - we have no rights once outside the EU. And he and his clique cannot wait to get their hands on the NHS - no more health care for the poor once the Brexit Tories get their hands on power. No insurance? Die you pauper. I only hope that at the last the poor suckers who voted Leave are suitably pleased that they are dying in agony for "sovereignty".

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meic
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 14 Jul 2018, 11:20am

The NHS was going to get privatised by the Tory government regardless of whether the UK left or remained in the EU.
It was also going to be privatised and "raped" by US corporations regardless of whether the US had Trump or Clinton in the top job.

The privatisation is not a function of whether power is based in Westminster or Brussels, but a result of who people elect. In the US they have no option but to elect somebody who follows neo-liberal policies.

Does anybody remember "You have 24 hours to save the NHS" and that wasnt the day before the EU referendum.
And that the EU was and still is planning on signing the TTIP
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby djnotts » 14 Jul 2018, 11:29am

"The NHS was going to get privatised by the Tory government regardless of whether the UK left or remained in the EU.
It was also going to be privatised and "raped" by US corporations regardless of whether the US had Trump or Clinton in the top job."

Probably so, but slightly longer term. This way (out, new trade agreements with corporate USA), will be done sooner and in such a way that a UK government of different persuasions will not be able to undo the damage. Even May would find it difficult to go to the Polls promising to end the NHS, as an inevitable part of delivering what the masses (never known to vote in their own interests!) demanded i.e. Brexit much easier.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 14 Jul 2018, 11:38am

This way (out, new trade agreements with corporate USA), will be done sooner

So you do accept that they will be able to set up a rapid trade deal with the USA?
The prevalent view of those saying this is a disaster is that we can not possibly set up such a deal in such a short time period.
Mr Obama promised that we would be at the back of the queue.
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby djnotts » 14 Jul 2018, 11:44am

All depends how much Trump wants e.g. to send signal to the Chinese (and how vicious he's feeling at any given moment). And yes I know I over-simplify.

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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby meic » 14 Jul 2018, 11:55am

And yes I know I over-simplify.

That helps you to see the big picture. Sometimes the devil is in the detail, sometimes you are being dragged into details to stop you seeing the big picture.

Does politics have an equivalent of the laws of thermodynamics, that can always be looked at to make sure you are not being dragged along a totally false path.
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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 14 Jul 2018, 12:06pm

meic wrote:
We had a good discussion after that, and within ten minutes, she agreed with me that we should be out and she'd voted without thinking.


Mick, You dont think there is any chance that she just said that as a quick, expedient way of moving the conversation on to something more entertaining? Or less controversial.
No, not at all!
She's an entertaining woman, and we've known each other for over thirty years.

Later, the conversation went onto cannabis, and how she and friends used to spend the night stoned on the beach at Whitsands Bay. :lol:

PDQ Mobile wrote:Without wanting to press you too hard, you stated up thread that your reason for wanting to leave was a " loss of sovereignty".
So I wondered if you brought any other argument to your discussion?

Yes, we chatted about farming and fishing, and law making and lack of independence.

The trouble with the In vs Out arguments, if you belong to one camp, you tend to stay there. I think there were many fence-sitters, and they would drop to the side of In because it's easier ........................ like our friend did.
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Cugel
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Cugel » 14 Jul 2018, 3:56pm

meic wrote:How much you value the status quo rather depends on where you fall on the hierarchy of benefiting from it. Which is an alternative answer to why leave voters were predominantly from the lower social economic classes contrasting the commonly given one that such people are less able to reach a sound conclusion.

The EU wasnt entirely a status quo though, was it? It was forever morphing into something else and there was a stated intention that it should morph into an ever closer Europe.

Leave was probably seen by its voters as being the more Conservative option retaining the nation status rather than morphing into the New European Order.


There's a lot of confusion in the minds (and consequently the actions) of those who nowadays call themselves "conservative". In practice, most are anything but conservative since they're intent on destroying just about everything of the current status quo in favour of a wholly imaginary myth about Little England. This myth seems to be connected with a dislike or even hatred of multi-cultural actuality in Britain, especially those more obvious strands defined by unpale skin, non-Christian religion or non-standard sexuality. The desire isn't to conserve anything but rather to destroy a great deal of the current status quo.

Their messiah is Mrs Thatcher, who can be accurately described as both a revolutionary and radical - whilst at the same time giving off that reactionary-bigot attitude that seems to be the only shred of "conservatism" remaining in such folk: a desire to preserve their privileges in the form of a lack of rights for those who are "not one of us", to use one of Thatcher's favourite phrases.

****
No doubt there are many conditions and activities of both the EU and the British nation that can be examined and discussed in relation to their good or bad effects on one's actual personal interests and well-being. These seem rarely discussed, with most Brexit-related stuff just a hodge-podge of emotive slogans, yah-boos and bogeymen tales. But even a more rational and reasoned discussion is hardly likely to predict the future in terms of all possible effects of staying or leaving the EU. It's too complex to predict the many consequences of the myriad arrangements and relationships.

Personally I take the view of MickF's friend: preservation of what is currently working is far better than scrapping everything in favour of some mythical national utopia that is, in any case, merely an obvious cover for proto-fascist nationalists and/or rabid neoliberal fatcats & their tame politicians, to build the second laissez-faire Victorian style society that they hope will keep them in their positions of power and privilege whilst allowing them to persecute those "who begin at Calais". The British Aristocracy may have morphed into a gang of "businessmen" but they have the same unpleasant desires as aristocrats everywhere.

Sad that those who are already the victims of this new aristocracy are too bamboozled by the mass media to discern who it is that's actually degrading their lives - and will do so at an increasing rate if & when EU reins are let loose from the nationalist and fatcat halters.

Cugel