** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

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mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 17 Mar 2019, 9:12am

Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:Disbelief in Europe and the damage done to the "mother of parliaments"


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/16/brexit-disbelief-in-europe-at-another-lost-week-theresa-may-strasbourg-juncker

Sobering article indeed. The failure is all ours.


yes but I dont agree with the assessment of the ERG & DUP holding the country to ransom. Rather I think they are just pointing out re the backstop that it was always a bad stupid deal that May was creating and there fore wasted the last 2-3 years building a mansion on sand. Stupid, incompetent, negligent woman - that she is still there pedaling her wares is the shame of this country. By the time anything happens it will be going on 4 years and the referendum ceases to be valid the electorate having changed purely in terms of bodies. The sad thing is that I hope that the EU will only allow more time if there is another referendum; sad to have to rely on the EU to save our bacon.

Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 17 Mar 2019, 9:21am

mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:Disbelief in Europe and the damage done to the "mother of parliaments"


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/16/brexit-disbelief-in-europe-at-another-lost-week-theresa-may-strasbourg-juncker

Sobering article indeed. The failure is all ours.


yes but I dont agree with the assessment of the ERG & DUP holding the country to ransom. Rather I think they are just pointing out re the backstop that it was always a bad stupid deal that May was creating and there fore wasted the last 2-3 years building a mansion on sand. Stupid, incompetent, negligent woman - that she is still there pedaling her wares is the shame of this country. By the time anything happens it will be going on 4 years and the referendum ceases to be valid the electorate having changed purely in terms of bodies. The sad thing is that I hope that the EU will only allow more time if there is another referendum; sad to have to rely on the EU to save our bacon.

So what could/should she, or anyone else in her position have done, I find myself musing - and I really don't know the answer.

The EU was never going to roll over, and why would they? Both main Parties have deeply entrenched divisions, yada yada yada. We were on the way to the accident from the moment we voted Leave (and arguably a long way prior to that).

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 17 Mar 2019, 9:35am

Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Sobering article indeed. The failure is all ours.


yes but I dont agree with the assessment of the ERG & DUP holding the country to ransom. Rather I think they are just pointing out re the backstop that it was always a bad stupid deal that May was creating and there fore wasted the last 2-3 years building a mansion on sand. Stupid, incompetent, negligent woman - that she is still there pedaling her wares is the shame of this country. By the time anything happens it will be going on 4 years and the referendum ceases to be valid the electorate having changed purely in terms of bodies. The sad thing is that I hope that the EU will only allow more time if there is another referendum; sad to have to rely on the EU to save our bacon.

So what could/should she, or anyone else in her position have done, I find myself musing - and I really don't know the answer.

The EU was never going to roll over, and why would they? Both main Parties have deeply entrenched divisions, yada yada yada. We were on the way to the accident from the moment we voted Leave (and arguably a long way prior to that).



well 1) never activate Article 50 right away 2) setup a cross party commitee to look into the consequences and problems once all the dust has settled 3) since the referendum was only advisory report back to the country that Brexit is a bad idea impossible to implelement without damaging sovereignty of the various parts of the country or keeping faith with the GFA so not binding 4) this would all take time and hopefully the electorate would have changed its mind sufficiently if necessary just due to brext-eers dieing and being replaced by younger pro EU voters. Result the tory party internal conflict has been assuaged and the country can forget about it and carry on as before.

But Mrs May is power mad wants to leave her mark on history what ever the conserquences
Last edited by mercalia on 17 Mar 2019, 9:43am, edited 8 times in total.

PDQ Mobile
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby PDQ Mobile » 17 Mar 2019, 9:36am

pwa wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:The man is a living lampoon, a ridiculous cartoon, but if I ever find myself marooned with him on an island with no food I will remember your words of warning.


I think you would be well advised.
To see him as a cartoon is to underestimate.

If one takes all the things that we know about Mogg it adds up to a man filled with self interest, not a man on a crusade for a better Britain.
He is a product of an elitist and antisocial system and of his strange elitist father. Trained in the art of debate by years in the self same system. Beware of his voice!

It is my view that he sees the EU as having regulated in ways hindering him in fulfilling his personal aims to accrue vast wealth, and by association, power.
His opposition to some "green" rules, put in place by the EU in an attempt to improve both soil quality and species diversity, are a clear indicator of that IMV.
I am not a financial expert but it would not be a stretch to imagine that some areas of EU financial regulation he finds irksome and they get in his way. His business is Venture Capitalism, which is quite rightly regulated to some extent at least. The consequences of not doing so, I surely do not need to spell out.

So broadly the man would like to see a bonfire of regulation in those two areas for starters. Extending that bonfire into workers rights and conditions would likely follow IMV.

Now those self same regulations were agreed in Brussels by ALL the member states. The agricultural regs I find sensible, a small compromise between "cheap food" and yet a beneficial eye on other portions of the ecosphere.
Changing them requires international discussion and agreement across many areas of knowledge and experience.
Not a one man crusade just because Mogg doesn't like something in his way to larger profit on his acres and profits.

If you lay onto those areas the proven extreme religious and moral hypocrisy of the man then you are, IMV, left with no other conclusion that his interest is not for the good of the UK, but quite simply for himself.

He is not alone in that of course, (Google Foxy!).
But his old fashioned and "moralistic" view of society make me even more determined to oppose him. I have no wish to return to the last century.

To throw away the membership of a diverse, tolerant, culturally rich and agriculturally fertile block, for a man of his narrow and self interested views, seems beyond any sensible analysis. IMV.

Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 17 Mar 2019, 9:42am

mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:
yes but I dont agree with the assessment of the ERG & DUP holding the country to ransom. Rather I think they are just pointing out re the backstop that it was always a bad stupid deal that May was creating and there fore wasted the last 2-3 years building a mansion on sand. Stupid, incompetent, negligent woman - that she is still there pedaling her wares is the shame of this country. By the time anything happens it will be going on 4 years and the referendum ceases to be valid the electorate having changed purely in terms of bodies. The sad thing is that I hope that the EU will only allow more time if there is another referendum; sad to have to rely on the EU to save our bacon.

So what could/should she, or anyone else in her position have done, I find myself musing - and I really don't know the answer.

The EU was never going to roll over, and why would they? Both main Parties have deeply entrenched divisions, yada yada yada. We were on the way to the accident from the moment we voted Leave (and arguably a long way prior to that).



well 1) never activated Article 50 right away 2) setup a cross party commitee to look into the consequences and problems 3) since the referendum was only advisory report back to the country that Brexit is a bad idea impossible to implelement without damaging sovereignty of the various parts of the country or keeping faith with the GFA 4) this would all take time and hopefully the electorate would have changed its mind sufficiently if necessary just due to brext-eers dieing and being replaced by younger pro EU voters

Certainly 1. didn't happen - it was what, 9-10 months afterwards, in the face of increasing clamour from all sides.
2. Agree
3. Everyone went into it with the clear understanding it was binding
4.I've seen this a lot, but it's illusory, I fear - the population's ageing faster than new voters are coming onto the electoral roll, and we know that older voters had every bit as much of a tendency to Brexit as younger ones had to Remain. (But if you were to instead talk about mobilising the younger voters to a greater degree than first time round, then you might be onto something)

mercalia
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mercalia » 17 Mar 2019, 9:50am

Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:So what could/should she, or anyone else in her position have done, I find myself musing - and I really don't know the answer.

The EU was never going to roll over, and why would they? Both main Parties have deeply entrenched divisions, yada yada yada. We were on the way to the accident from the moment we voted Leave (and arguably a long way prior to that).



well 1) never activated Article 50 right away 2) setup a cross party commitee to look into the consequences and problems 3) since the referendum was only advisory report back to the country that Brexit is a bad idea impossible to implelement without damaging sovereignty of the various parts of the country or keeping faith with the GFA 4) this would all take time and hopefully the electorate would have changed its mind sufficiently if necessary just due to brext-eers dieing and being replaced by younger pro EU voters

Certainly 1. didn't happen - it was what, 9-10 months afterwards, in the face of increasing clamour from all sides.
2. Agree
3. Everyone went into it with the clear understanding it was binding
4.I've seen this a lot, but it's illusory, I fear - the population's ageing faster than new voters are coming onto the electoral roll, and we know that older voters had every bit as much of a tendency to Brexit as younger ones had to Remain. (But if you were to instead talk about mobilising the younger voters to a greater degree than first time round, then you might be onto something)


well your ( 1) its what she should done
your (3) it being binding was a false offer in face of the impossibility of it happening for the reasons given. ie just another lie of many, like many election promises
your (4) not sure it is happening and you are assuming that remainers become leavers as they get older. Any way that issue was a fall back suggestion, the hope is that a sane and considered report back would convince enough leavers that they can't have what was promised, it was a pipe dream? ( that seems to be happening) & any way any referendum can only be valid for a certain amount of time eg no longer than the duration of a parliament?
Last edited by mercalia on 17 Mar 2019, 9:57am, edited 2 times in total.

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Mick F
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Mick F » 17 Mar 2019, 9:54am

mercalia wrote:.............. I think they are just pointing out re the backstop that it was always a bad stupid deal that May was creating and there fore wasted the last 2-3 years building a mansion on sand. Stupid, incompetent, negligent woman - that she is still there pedaling her wares is the shame of this country. By the time anything happens it will be going on 4 years and the referendum ceases to be valid the electorate having changed purely in terms of bodies. The sad thing is that I hope that the EU will only allow more time if there is another referendum; sad to have to rely on the EU to save our bacon.
I agree with all that.

mercalia wrote: .......1) never activate Article 50 right away 2) setup a cross party commitee to look into the consequences and problems once all the dust has settled 3) since the referendum was only advisory report back to the country that Brexit is a bad idea impossible to implelement without damaging sovereignty of the various parts of the country or keeping faith with the GFA so not binding 4) this would all take time and hopefully the electorate would have changed its mind sufficiently if necessary just due to brext-eers dieing and being replaced by younger pro EU voters. Result the tory party internal conflict has been assuaged and the country can forget about it and carry on as before.

But Mrs May is power mad wants to leave her mark on history what ever the conserquences
I agree with all that too.
Mick F. Cornwall

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 17 Mar 2019, 12:41pm

mercalia wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
mercalia wrote:Disbelief in Europe and the damage done to the "mother of parliaments"


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/16/brexit-disbelief-in-europe-at-another-lost-week-theresa-may-strasbourg-juncker

Sobering article indeed. The failure is all ours.


yes but I dont agree with the assessment of the ERG & DUP holding the country to ransom. Rather I think they are just pointing out re the backstop that it was always a bad stupid deal that May was creating and there fore wasted the last 2-3 years building a mansion on sand. Stupid, incompetent, negligent woman - that she is still there pedaling her wares is the shame of this country. By the time anything happens it will be going on 4 years and the referendum ceases to be valid the electorate having changed purely in terms of bodies. The sad thing is that I hope that the EU will only allow more time if there is another referendum; sad to have to rely on the EU to save our bacon.

Her whole strategy is to try and appease the extreme right in her own party and the extreme right DUP that prop up her failing and incompetent minority government,because she fears them.She's hopelessly carrying on a in dead end job that no one wanted and that she was manoeuvred into by the people she's now trying to appease.
She not up to it as PM as much as she was a failure as Home Sec.
Meanwhile the world stands by and laughs out loud at the incompetence of her and her government as the ordinary UK wo/man on the street seethes and feels evermore distanced from the politrickal elite who have no concept of the anger toward them.It wouldn't surprise me in the least that the next GE or referendum sees the lowest turnout of the electorate,which is probably what Westminster wants after all
It's an utter disgrace.
Last edited by reohn2 on 17 Mar 2019, 12:59pm, edited 1 time in total.
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reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 17 Mar 2019, 12:56pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
pwa wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:The man is a living lampoon, a ridiculous cartoon, but if I ever find myself marooned with him on an island with no food I will remember your words of warning.


I think you would be well advised.
To see him as a cartoon is to underestimate.

If one takes all the things that we know about Mogg it adds up to a man filled with self interest, not a man on a crusade for a better Britain.
He is a product of an elitist and antisocial system and of his strange elitist father. Trained in the art of debate by years in the self same system. Beware of his voice!

It is my view that he sees the EU as having regulated in ways hindering him in fulfilling his personal aims to accrue vast wealth, and by association, power.
His opposition to some "green" rules, put in place by the EU in an attempt to improve both soil quality and species diversity, are a clear indicator of that IMV.
I am not a financial expert but it would not be a stretch to imagine that some areas of EU financial regulation he finds irksome and they get in his way. His business is Venture Capitalism, which is quite rightly regulated to some extent at least. The consequences of not doing so, I surely do not need to spell out.

So broadly the man would like to see a bonfire of regulation in those two areas for starters. Extending that bonfire into workers rights and conditions would likely follow IMV.

Now those self same regulations were agreed in Brussels by ALL the member states. The agricultural regs I find sensible, a small compromise between "cheap food" and yet a beneficial eye on other portions of the ecosphere.
Changing them requires international discussion and agreement across many areas of knowledge and experience.
Not a one man crusade just because Mogg doesn't like something in his way to larger profit on his acres and profits.

If you lay onto those areas the proven extreme religious and moral hypocrisy of the man then you are, IMV, left with no other conclusion that his interest is not for the good of the UK, but quite simply for himself.

He is not alone in that of course, (Google Foxy!).
But his old fashioned and "moralistic" view of society make me even more determined to oppose him. I have no wish to return to the last century.

To throw away the membership of a diverse, tolerant, culturally rich and agriculturally fertile block, for a man of his narrow and self interested views, seems beyond any sensible analysis. IMV.

Well,truthfully and concisely put,the problem being that many are fooled by his well suited Savelle row exterior covering a black heart of granite and his palms facing inward poised to gather as much wealth as possible,"you'll know them by their fruits" and "it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle" to offer his own book's words in light of his proclaimed beliefs.
IMO he's a creepy subhuman of the lowest order.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 17 Mar 2019, 1:04pm

He's off your Christmas card list this year, then?

reohn2
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby reohn2 » 17 Mar 2019, 1:08pm

Bonefishblues wrote:He's off your Christmas card list this year, then?

He and his like were never on it! :D
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Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 17 Mar 2019, 1:22pm

Apparently, part of the price of the unDemocratic Unionist Party support is that they have several of their MPs on the post departure negotiating team.

These people are a minor party in a minor (numerically) part of the UK: NI didn't even vote 'Leave'.
John

Cycling and recycling

Oldjohnw
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Oldjohnw » 17 Mar 2019, 1:24pm

his well suited Savelle row exterior


Open to dispute.
John

Cycling and recycling

Bonefishblues
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby Bonefishblues » 17 Mar 2019, 1:41pm

Oldjohnw wrote:
his well suited Savelle row exterior


Open to dispute.

No, his suits definitely fit as if they were tailored on Savelle Row [sic] :wink:

One day he'll grow into his lapels.

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mjr
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Re: ** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

Postby mjr » 17 Mar 2019, 3:08pm

Bonefishblues wrote:3. Everyone went into it with the clear understanding it was binding

Myth! See attached. I know what Cameroon's leaflet said, but that leaflet is itself not binding!
Image Attachments
advisory_referendum_note.jpg
Referendum advice
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.