** The Brexit Thread ** - 'Brexit Means Brexit'

[kwackers]

As for UK influence within tbe EU, we have had practically none and the only influence we will have after Brexit wont be any better

For someone with no influence we vetoed a lot of stuff and/or got terms changed.

With that in mind I presume by "wont be any better" you actually mean "will be worse" since we can't veto stuff, nor can we bargain away our vote for stuff we want.

[Cyril Haearn]

If we relied on "Tyranny of the Majority" we'd have no cycle facilities (the majority would want money spent on roads for cars), we'd probably still be hanging people, we'd likely have no safety net for the more vulnerable in society (the majority would vote for themselves to pay lower taxes ...), etc.

..
I doubt there are many majorities, more than 50% of the electorate, not of turnout

The death penalty, I think the majority would be against that now but our enlightened politicians banned it when many were still for it

The EU issue should have been treated likewise, not delegated to the People

[661-Pete]

The EU issue should have been treated likewise, not delegated to the People

I've long held the view that referendums are a device instigated by dictators to justify their despotism. Perhaps I'm a bit influenced by what I've read of Hitler's referendums staged during the 1930s. Those were, of course, totally meaningless, 100% rigged and coerced - but history still calls them 'referendums'.

Of course I'm not about to compare the referendums that have been held in the UK in my lifetime, with those. But I still think every one has been unnecessary and pointless. In 1975 we voted to Remain in the EEC (as it then was - I voted Against back then as it happens). With no referendum we would still have stayed in the EEC because Wilson had negotiated the deal back then and it was accepted.

In 2011 we voted against a PR electoral system (I abstained). The result was, in my view, heavily swayed by the then unpopularity of the LibDems in the light of their coalition arrangement. In other circumstances we might have voted for PR - but we didn't. Referendum wasted.

In 2014 Scotland voted against independence (not living in Scotland, I wasn't involved). Perhaps that did reflect true public opinion at that time. But still, it needn't have been held.

And now - we have the mess arising from 23 June 2016....

So you are right BP. Usually, leave it to the elected representatives - even if they're wrong. Except now - because there's no other way out of the horrible mess we're in.

[meic]

I've long held the view that referendums are a device instigated by dictators to justify their despotism.

Our dictators got this one rather wrong, didnt they?
Or possibly they had to resort to a referendum because they were not dictators and were forced into it by the voting public who were abandoning them (both main parties) for a party who would allow a referendum.

[mr bajokoses]

Why dont I believe that?

Am I right in assuming you think that no new information of any value has come to light in the two-and-a-half years since the referendum?

If you want to understand my viewpoint then dont ask this sort of question, read what I have to say rather than trying to lead things.

You can believe whatever you like. I am genuinely curious how a self-proclaimed remain voter can put forward a position in which more than two years of developments can just be dismissed as irrelevant.

If I could have made sense of your position from reading your posts, then I wouldn't have asked.

[reohn2]

........... the need for our European nations and organisations to eschew land grabs and economic domination of neighbours.

Al

Evidence please.
And if so how can the UK influence such desicions by leaving the EU?

Its all history, Germans felt that they were over punished and that land was grabbed at the end of WWI, this led to political and economic chaos in Germany and the rise of the Nazis who then then did serial land grabs resulting in WWII. Recently there was the land grabs of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. There is fear in the Baltic States of further Russian land grabs.

We're all aware of that history and of Russia's current aims as much as we are about the Nazi's as a result of WWI.

Euro membership has punished the Club Med nations economically to the benefit of Germany and France

If it were as you say and as bad as you say,why aren't the "club med" countries clammering to leave?

As for UK influence within the EU, we have had practically none

We have the same influence and votes within the EU parliament as any other country

and the only influence we will have after Brexit wont be any better

We won't have any influence after brexit and will be at the mercy of the big fish in the sea.

but at least we will be rowing our own boat

Which is a very small boat in a very large sea full of sharks.

We need to look East and seek closer ties particularly with the other English speaking nations.

Al

Some of the eastern countries you speak of have already closed the door through the WTO.

[meic]

I am genuinely curious how a self-proclaimed remain voter can put forward a position in which more than two years of developments can just be dismissed as irrelevant.

Phrased that way, it is easier to answer.
Because those who are calling for this to be taken into account have been trying to overturn the result of the referendum by any means they can and this is just another in a long stream of attempts to reverse the decision. The motive is clear and the resolution against it will be equally clear because things have turned so polarised and partisan.


As an aside to that
I have considered the odds very much favour that this referendum will not be allowed to make any substantial difference, that it will be subverted. I sometimes think I am wrong but they really would have to get me thinking that if it was to be convincing.
I dont pretend to know how they will do it but so far they are very much on course. The referendum was over 2 years ago and nothing has happened, we have two years of "continuity" after that.
One scenario that looks quite possible is to screw things up so badly and take it right to the deadline, so there was no choice but to take a very conditional Brexit to avoid a "no deal". That conditional Brexit will, of course, be very similar to membership in the constraints that it puts on the UK with respect to what the people who run things want. The passports will be blue/black though.
A second vote/peoples' referendum would just be too blatant.
The "they" isnt some secret society lurking in a mansion's cellar but thousands or tens of thousands in elevated positions across UK and Europe who have more power than the average voters do.

[al_yrpal]

Evidence please.
And if so how can the UK influence such desicions by leaving the EU?

Its all history, Germans felt that they were over punished and that land was grabbed at the end of WWI, this led to political and economic chaos in Germany and the rise of the Nazis who then then did serial land grabs resulting in WWII. Recently there was the land grabs of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. There is fear in the Baltic States of further Russian land grabs.

We're all aware of that history and of Russia's current aims as much as we are about the Nazi's as a result of WWI.

Euro membership has punished the Club Med nations economically to the benefit of Germany and France

If it were as you say and as bad as you say,why aren't the "club med" countries clammering to leave?

As for UK influence within the EU, we have had practically none

We have the same influence and votes within the EU parliament as any other country

and the only influence we will have after Brexit wont be any better

We won't have any influence after brexit and will be at the mercy of the big fish in the sea.

but at least we will be rowing our own boat

Which is a very small boat in a very large sea full of sharks.

We need to look East and seek closer ties particularly with the other English speaking nations.

Al

Some of the eastern countries you speak of have already closed the door through the WTO.

For a start you werent aware of the land grabs because you wouldnt have asked that question!

Why arent the Club Med clamOURing to leave - because as a result of joining the Euro they are now deeply in hoc to the EU!

We have the same influence as Lithuania - great!

The rest are just your pessimistic opinions devoid of evidence.

Al

[pete75]

That's something people so addicted to the TV that they need to watch programs they didn't see when they were shown originally - or so I'm led to believe.

Interesting view.

Perhaps they use iPlayer so they don't have to sit and watch the TV all the time?

I watch one episode of something whilst I have my tea and pretty much never watch live TV (my aerial may well have blown down last winter for all I know).

Currently I'm working through 'Killing Eve' and when that's finished I'll catch up with Dr Who.
Prior to that I'd just finished watching series 3 of the rather excellent "The Man in the High Castle" (Amazon)

I actually watch more stuff on YouTube, there's some excellent stuff on there these days.

No one has to sit and watch the TV at all never mind all the time.

[reohn2]

For a start you werent aware of the land grabs because you wouldnt have asked that question!

Wrong,so stop trying to play the clever guy I can read and am no stranger to history.

Why arent the Club Med clamOURing to leave - because as a result of joining the Euro they are now deeply in hoc to the EU!

By the same token all countries in the euro are in the same boat.

We have the same influence as Lithuania - great!

We have the same right and voice as Germany,France and all the other EU countries

The rest are just your pessimistic opinions devoid of evidence.

Al

Wrong again,I'm like other remainers on the thread,I listened to and read articles by experts,most of which don't have an axe to grind.
The pro brexit camp OTOH are mainly rich folk,set to make lots out of a decimation of workers rights,and environmental laws presently within the EU.And according to you all the fish in the sea
Then there are the ordinary folks on the street lied to continually by the likes of Rees Mogg,Liam Fox,BoJo,and Nigel Farage,who believed they'd see the end of immigation and £350m a week pour into the NHSand many other lies.
A lot of these people have since the referendum woke up to the lies they've been told and changed their minds,it's because of that awakening there's so much resitance by the liars for a second referendum.
And let's not forget Aron Git,another lying slimeball who most likely solicited money from illegal surces to fund the brexit campaign.
You'll be telling me next the moon's made of green cheese

EDIT:-
Al,you have so far offered not a single scrap of expert evidence to back up your claims of reasons to leave the EU,whereas remaining in the EU at least we know what to expect.
I'll put it to you that the source of all the mess the country is in is down to the current government and its mishandling of the country since the 2009 crash.

[mjr]

I've long held the view that referendums are a device instigated by dictators to justify their despotism.

Our dictators got this one rather wrong, didnt they?
Or possibly they had to resort to a referendum because they were not dictators and were forced into it by the voting public who were abandoning them (both main parties) for a party who would allow a referendum.

Ah, but now there are allegations of Downing Street working for Vote Leave by coordinating smears against a whistleblower of VL's mahoosive overspending https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... hed-smears

So did the unelected unaccountable cabinet in Downing Street publicly support Remain in a bluff to trick people into voting "against" them and get the result they privately really wanted?

[kwackers]

No one has to sit and watch the TV at all never mind all the time.

Yeah...

But according to you iPlayer exists for TV addicts, whereas I'm simply suggesting that a TV addict probably wouldn't need iPlayer since they'd have been sat in front of it when it was first shown.

Well, I've just watched bigclive tear down some electronics on YouTube, the last episode of Killing Eve and this thread is looking like business as usual, so now I can get a quick hour in my workshop and make myself some reversing gear before I'm accused of TV addiction.

[PDQ Mobile]

For a start you werent aware of the land grabs because you wouldnt have asked that question!

Why arent the Club Med clamOURing to leave - because as a result of joining the Euro they are now deeply in hoc to the EU!

We have the same influence as Lithuania - great!

The rest are just your pessimistic opinions devoid of evidence.

Al

I don't understand the land grab argument. What has it got to do with the EU or our membership of the EU.
Ukraine is not a member, is politically independent yet divided in it's own right.Not likely to become an EU member anytime soon.

Crimea was a straightforward strategic land grab and political coup by Putin against his old vassal states.
No affiliation with the EU.
Why are these relevant to our position within or without the EU?
--------
We already trade (import?) enormous quantities of goods with the Eastern Asia without any issues?

My view is that our food supply should come predominantly from a stable Europe.
I can see no sense in trucking food half way round the world when we have arguably the world's finest agricultural resource literally on our doorstep. Believe me when I say many nations look with envy and lust at that resource.
----
In spite of the Eurozone's problems in "club med", the Euro has continued to hold its value- better than the pound, in fact.
Some of "clubmed's" problems were caused by over stretched domestic borrowing. Greece for example was never the same after hosting the Olympics.
It's not perfect by I think "Reohn" is correct in saying those countries would never opt to leave. They see the benefits of membership all to clearly.

[pete75]

No one has to sit and watch the TV at all never mind all the time.

Yeah...

But according to you iPlayer exists for TV addicts, whereas I'm simply suggesting that a TV addict probably wouldn't need iPlayer since they'd have been sat in front of it when it was first shown.

No they'd be watching a program on a different channel when it was shown.

[meic]

I've long held the view that referendums are a device instigated by dictators to justify their despotism.

Our dictators got this one rather wrong, didnt they?
Or possibly they had to resort to a referendum because they were not dictators and were forced into it by the voting public who were abandoning them (both main parties) for a party who would allow a referendum.

Ah, but now there are allegations of Downing Street working for Vote Leave by coordinating smears against a whistleblower of VL's mahoosive overspending https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... hed-smears

So did the unelected unaccountable cabinet in Downing Street publicly support Remain in a bluff to trick people into voting "against" them and get the result they privately really wanted?

"Bluffing" your electorate into voting against you, totally disqualifies you from dictatorship status.

I could have sworn that David Cameron and his cabinet were elected in. I do remember being rather dismayed after the general election over something like that.