Cycling UK Forum

meic wrote:Because those who are calling for this to be taken into account have been trying to overturn the result of the referendum by any means they can and this is just another in a long stream of attempts to reverse the decision. The motive is clear and the resolution against it will be equally clear because things have turned so polarised and partisan.

Yes I would like to see the 'decision' reversed. My own position is unambiguous in that cancelling Brexit is the lesser of two evils. The vast majority of leave voters may be disgruntled but will not fight for Brexit, as it is now very clear indeed that it is damaged goods, and pragmatic and decent British people recognise what a fool's errand Brexit is. On the other hand if Brexit goes ahead almost everyone in the country will have a valid grievance and the blame and recriminations will never end.

meic wrote:As an aside to that
I have considered the odds very much favour that this referendum will not be allowed to make any substantial difference, that it will be subverted....
I dont pretend to know how they will do it but so far they are very much on course....
The "they" isnt some secret society lurking in a mansion's cellar but thousands or tens of thousands in elevated positions across UK and Europe who have more power than the average voters do.

There's a lot of conspiracy theory thinking in this, but the reality is that Brexiter fantasies are conflicting with the rules-based EU and the need for the UK to abide by its past commitments. Brexit will destroy Brexit all by itself with no need for the kind of plotting which seems well beyond the capability of any of our current 'leaders'.

Your comment isnt that far from my own. It is just that unusual views lack vocabulary, I have to choose from unsuitable words from either side.
The "conspiracy" as you call it is just a black box, I dont know what is in it but I can see the result.
Brexit could be done if people really wanted to do it, they would just do it, over riding the system.
Brexit will destroy itself because it is trying to break the system and the leaders will sacrifice Brexit rather than over ride the system, it isnt a plot. Just there is no longer any way to exercise democratic choice over the system.

meic wrote:

al_yrpal wrote:For the evidence look no further than the negotiations. If we remain in the EU Britain will be further diminished and impoverished especially if we get a labour government. Disaster beckons.

Al

It was very short sighted of folk on both sides of the referendum to use it as a "proxy" for the Labour-Conservative battle.
At the moment it is tilted to the EU being more "socialist" than the UK but that could change very rapidly.

Speaking for myself prior to 2017 my constituency had a particularly rabid anti-EU Tory MP with a slender majority. I voted labour not out of any belief that Corbyn would be an effective PM but because it was essential (IMO) to get this MP out - he would have been a leading light in the ERG. The labour MP who took his place is a decent, intelligent and effective constituency MP. Unfortunately MPs like this will be collateral damage when party leadership is so poor at the moment.

meic wrote:Brexit could be done if people really wanted to do it, they would just do it, over riding the system.
Brexit will destroy itself because it is trying to break the system and the leaders will sacrifice Brexit rather than over ride the system...

To 'just do' Brexit requires the EU and the World Trade Organisation to override their systems too, and despite the UK leading by example, these organisations seem much less willing to smash themselves up.

al_yrpal wrote:The Euro is not the EU and the EU is not the Euro.

Personally I dont think of Europe as the EU, my comment about the land grabs is nothing to do with the EU, it was about bad things that happened in the past. The EU will eventually disintegrate. Empires always do, especially undemocratic ones. When Juncker retires his place will be taken by an even more rabid integrationalist.


No, the EU is clearly about integration. The land grabs are often about historical land disputes between individual
nations or naked aggression to subjugate other countries.


Al

So I (still) don't see what land grabs by Russia are to do with the debate we are having here?

The EU is not the Euro, no, quite, I would have thought that a positive in your view?

Personally I don't think the EU will "disintegrate", not in even the longer term, for it has been a force for improvement in many areas and for many people.IMHO

It may develop, in time, into something rather different.
I would like my country to be right there at the table during that process. We can bring much to the process.
I would rather see more integration and a better international understanding than a hollow Nationalism or worse.

al_yrpal wrote:For the evidence look no further than the negotiations.

The negotiations have so far been a disaster,which has been wholly due to the UK negotiators being totally out of their depth in understanding the EU's position and rules,the present minister one Mr Dominic Raab has only this week admitted he knew nothing of how transport across the channel works or how much there is!!
His predecessor was in a similar position by his own admittance.

If we remain in the EU Britain will be further diminished and impoverished especially if we get a labour government. Disaster beckons.

Al

Disaster is here and it's being orchestrated by the present bunch of incapables
Can you honestly endorse this bunch of unbelievable idiots?

BTW you haven't answered a single question put to you regarding evidence of your claims,but chosen to change the subject each time you've been asked

Cyril Haearn wrote:Any leavers from 1975 still active?

(*puts hand up*) Please sir .... please .... I'm one Of course, I later changed my mind.

Cyril Haearn wrote: Nice or nasty tories?

Certainly not! The very idea!

N.B. Name in quote tags - as per request.

mr bajokoses wrote:

meic wrote:Brexit could be done if people really wanted to do it, they would just do it, over riding the system.
Brexit will destroy itself because it is trying to break the system and the leaders will sacrifice Brexit rather than over ride the system...

To 'just do' Brexit requires the EU and the World Trade Organisation to override their systems too, and despite the UK leading by example, these organisations seem much less willing to smash themselves up.

I dont accept that.
The UK isnt shy of violating international law when it wants to bomb some poor third world country.
If there was the political will to see through the result of the referendum then NI could be forced to take a referendum and choose which entity it wishes to be a part of when the UK departs.
The DUP couldnt block it if Labour were genuinely supporting Brexit.
The Tories are unwilling to allow the vote because it could break up the UK
It is not going to happen that way because the elected representatives are unwilling to do that for something they dont believe in. It isnt the same as causing death and destruction overseas.
The fear of IRA/UDF terrorists being born depending on the way a referendum goes will prevent that particular exercise in democracy.

As the saying goes "If voting made a difference, they would ban it."

meic wrote:

I agree with you for once - that is possible

I thought that you voted remain.

I was referring to agreeing or disagreeing within this forum. Not outside it.

I will agree that there was one serious point in the referendum debate where I was seriously misinformed (I imagine along with most of the UK population) was about the legal restrictions on what could be done with NI "sovereignty".
Even though I had myself frequently pointed out that we did have a land border with the EU, when others ignored that fact.

I cant understand why nobody spelt it out to the masses, it wasnt in the government leaflet.
I cant blame the Leave campaign for its omission though.

I imagine people were too busy throwing insults at each other.

meic wrote:I will agree that there was one serious point in the referendum debate where I was seriously misinformed (I imagine along with most of the UK population) was about the legal restrictions on what could be done with NI "sovereignty".
Even though I had myself frequently pointed out that we did have a land border with the EU, when others ignored that fact.

I cant understand why nobody spelt it out to the masses, it wasnt in the government leaflet.
I cant blame the Leave campaign for its omission though.

I imagine people were too busy throwing insults at each other.

A simple answer is that no one thought of it as a problem,you'de have thought the NI government would've
Maybe it's because they're as incompetent as the government are

meic wrote:If there was the political will to see through the result of the referendum then NI could be forced to take a referendum and choose which entity it wishes to be a part of when the UK departs.
The DUP couldnt block it if Labour were genuinely supporting Brexit.
The Tories are unwilling to allow the vote because it could break up the UK
It is not going to happen that way because the elected representatives are unwilling to do that for something they dont believe in.

As the saying goes "If voting made a difference, they would ban it."

These are the true costs of Brexit. They could have been put on the ballot papers. Then we would have had an informed electorate.

you'de have thought the NI government would've

May be they were too busy, throwing insults at each other.

mr bajokoses wrote:

meic wrote:If there was the political will to see through the result of the referendum then NI could be forced to take a referendum and choose which entity it wishes to be a part of when the UK departs.
The DUP couldnt block it if Labour were genuinely supporting Brexit.
The Tories are unwilling to allow the vote because it could break up the UK
It is not going to happen that way because the elected representatives are unwilling to do that for something they dont believe in.

As the saying goes "If voting made a difference, they would ban it."

These are the true costs of Brexit. They could have been put on the ballot papers. Then we would have had an informed electorate.

A guaranteed way of winning every referendum. Withhold some information then release it if you lose to get an annulment. If you win, nobody needs know.

On the other hand, I can not believe that remain would have deliberately withheld this information.
It is the first reason that I have heard which genuinely makes good grounds for a second referendum.
There is no reasonable reason to assume that it is a trick to undermine, so much as an "oops we missed that".
The problem is that we have already had "Wolf" called too many times for anybody to listen any more.
Which returns me to my hobbyhorse.