Cycling UK Forum

It looks as if the Irish border question may be about to be ...um.....vapourized?
Superceded?
An out of this world solution.!


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46181662

meic wrote:Your comment isnt that far from my own. It is just that unusual views lack vocabulary, I have to choose from unsuitable words from either side.
The "conspiracy" as you call it is just a black box, I dont know what is in it but I can see the result.
Brexit could be done if people really wanted to do it, they would just do it, over riding the system.
Brexit will destroy itself because it is trying to break the system and the leaders will sacrifice Brexit rather than over ride the system, it isnt a plot. Just there is no longer any way to exercise democratic choice over the system.

A government whose entire future is predicated on delivering Brexit, populated by the leading lights of the Brexit campaign without opposition in parliament to Brexit has singularly failed to deliver a Brexit deal *anyone* supports, be they leavers or remainers.

The collective position of the Brexit side of this argument is that if only we were doing it right, everything would be just tickety-boo. That's a head's in the sand position of denial.

It's not the will to enact a good Brexit that's the problem; the problem is that there is *no* good Brexit.

Brexit is coming up hard against reality. It was always going to be thus because the leave campaign was a fantasy. No amount of attempts to blame others will change reality.

mr bajokoses wrote:Speaking for myself prior to 2017 my constituency had a particularly rabid anti-EU Tory MP with a slender majority. I voted labour not out of any belief that Corbyn would be an effective PM but because it was essential (IMO) to get this MP out - he would have been a leading light in the ERG. The labour MP who took his place is a decent, intelligent and effective constituency MP. Unfortunately MPs like this will be collateral damage when party leadership is so poor at the moment.

That's not Warrington South is it?

Sounds like me. Faisal is a top bloke, gets out and about, easy to get hold of whereas the old tory guy was a waste of space.
Faisal even sent me a birthday card - and it was hand written! (Probably by small children but its the thought that counts).

meic wrote:

you'de have thought the NI government would've

May be they were too busy, throwing insults at each other.

Yep,my thoughts too,to wrapped up in their own petty squabbling they lost sight of just what their job is.
It's the same in the Tory party,which is being revealed for all to see as time passess on this issue.

roubaixtuesday wrote:

meic wrote:Your comment isnt that far from my own. It is just that unusual views lack vocabulary, I have to choose from unsuitable words from either side.
The "conspiracy" as you call it is just a black box, I dont know what is in it but I can see the result.
Brexit could be done if people really wanted to do it, they would just do it, over riding the system.
Brexit will destroy itself because it is trying to break the system and the leaders will sacrifice Brexit rather than over ride the system, it isnt a plot. Just there is no longer any way to exercise democratic choice over the system.

A government whose entire future is predicated on delivering Brexit, populated by the leading lights of the Brexit campaign without opposition in parliament to Brexit has singularly failed to deliver a Brexit deal *anyone* supports, be they leavers or remainers.

The collective position of the Brexit side of this argument is that if only we were doing it right, everything would be just tickety-boo. That's a head's in the sand position of denial.

It's not the will to enact a good Brexit that's the problem; the problem is that there is *no* good Brexit.

Brexit is coming up hard against reality. It was always going to be thus because the leave campaign was a fantasy. No amount of attempts to blame others will change reality.

You are not reading what I am writing. You are "reading" what you expect to see because you are too polarised and partisan in your outlook.

kwackers wrote:

mr bajokoses wrote:Speaking for myself prior to 2017 my constituency had a particularly rabid anti-EU Tory MP with a slender majority. I voted labour not out of any belief that Corbyn would be an effective PM but because it was essential (IMO) to get this MP out - he would have been a leading light in the ERG. The labour MP who took his place is a decent, intelligent and effective constituency MP. Unfortunately MPs like this will be collateral damage when party leadership is so poor at the moment.

That's not Warrington South is it?

Sounds like me. Faisal is a top bloke, gets out and about, easy to get hold of whereas the old tory guy was a waste of space.
Faisal even sent me a birthday card - and it was hand written! (Probably by small children but its the thought that counts).

Bury North. The Lib Dem candidate in his campaign leaflet, implored us to vote Labour!!

Among my Brexit bugbears (I have a few ) is that the 2017 GE is cited by some disingenuous leavers as a ringing endorsement of Brexit, as the vote share for Tory and Labour was very high. I expect there were many people, myself included, who voted primarily to weaken May and the Tory party. And looking back, I am very glad I did. In no way was my vote any kind of approval of Corbyn. Our democratic system is about using sledgehammers to crack nuts.

meic wrote:

roubaixtuesday wrote:

meic wrote:Your comment isnt that far from my own. It is just that unusual views lack vocabulary, I have to choose from unsuitable words from either side.
The "conspiracy" as you call it is just a black box, I dont know what is in it but I can see the result.
Brexit could be done if people really wanted to do it, they would just do it, over riding the system.
Brexit will destroy itself because it is trying to break the system and the leaders will sacrifice Brexit rather than over ride the system, it isnt a plot. Just there is no longer any way to exercise democratic choice over the system.

A government whose entire future is predicated on delivering Brexit, populated by the leading lights of the Brexit campaign without opposition in parliament to Brexit has singularly failed to deliver a Brexit deal *anyone* supports, be they leavers or remainers.

The collective position of the Brexit side of this argument is that if only we were doing it right, everything would be just tickety-boo. That's a head's in the sand position of denial.

It's not the will to enact a good Brexit that's the problem; the problem is that there is *no* good Brexit.

Brexit is coming up hard against reality. It was always going to be thus because the leave campaign was a fantasy. No amount of attempts to blame others will change reality.

You are not reading what I am writing. You are "reading" what you expect to see because you are too polarised and partisan in your outlook.

You would be well advised to take your own oft reiterated advice.

Among my Brexit bugbears (I have a few ) is that the 2017 GE is cited by some disingenuous leavers as a ringing endorsement of Brexit, as the vote share for Tory and Labour was very high.

There were only two democratic means to affect this policy, the first was the referendum and the second the general election. It "passed" both hurdles.
Now we all know the system is totally flawed in this way, but few dare openly admit that our democracy is a total sham. It is a case of having to choose between admitting that Brexit has democratic approval or that our democratic system is not fit for purpose, a soundbite which they dont want released on the tabloid front pages.

roubaixtuesday wrote:

meic wrote:

roubaixtuesday wrote:
A government whose entire future is predicated on delivering Brexit, populated by the leading lights of the Brexit campaign without opposition in parliament to Brexit has singularly failed to deliver a Brexit deal *anyone* supports, be they leavers or remainers.

The collective position of the Brexit side of this argument is that if only we were doing it right, everything would be just tickety-boo. That's a head's in the sand position of denial.

It's not the will to enact a good Brexit that's the problem; the problem is that there is *no* good Brexit.

Brexit is coming up hard against reality. It was always going to be thus because the leave campaign was a fantasy. No amount of attempts to blame others will change reality.

You are not reading what I am writing. You are "reading" what you expect to see because you are too polarised and partisan in your outlook.

You would be well advised to take your own oft reiterated advice.

OK your post makes points but they are not relevant to my post that you have quoted as the starting point for it.

meic wrote:

Oldjohnw wrote:

Because those who are calling for this to be taken into account have been trying to overturn the result of the referendum by any means they can and this is just another in a long stream of attempts to reverse the decision.

Leading leavers had, of course, been trying to overturn the earlier referendum for 40 years. They never accepted the result.

Which is not true. They accepted the result, we went in and remained in. This referendum was a referendum to leave, not a re-run of a referendum that they didnt like the result of.

Which is not true. We went in in 1973 and had a referendum to leave in 1975 that asked "The Government has announced the results of the renegotiation of the United Kingdom's terms of membership of the European Community. Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community?"

Sound familiar? Leavers never accepted the result and the 2016 referendum was basically a rerun of the one that they didn't like the result of.

OK your post makes points but they are not relevant to my post that you have quoted as the starting point for it.

I was responding to the part about how the system is against Brexit.

Specifically

Brexit could be done if people really wanted to do it, they would just do it, over riding the system.
Brexit will destroy itself because it is trying to break the system and the leaders will sacrifice Brexit rather than over ride the system, it isnt a plot. Just there is no longer any way to exercise democratic choice over the system.

This is typical of how the reaction to the failure of Brexit to deliver its promises is being received: it's somehow the fault of how it's been being implemented.

That IMO is a lazy analysis that singularly fails to address the fundamentals.

In the same way that remainers who think that a second referendum will erase the effects of the first are being lazy.

meic wrote:

mjr wrote:So did the unelected unaccountable cabinet in Downing Street publicly support Remain in a bluff to trick people into voting "against" them and get the result they privately really wanted?

"Bluffing" your electorate into voting against you, totally disqualifies you from dictatorship status.

I could have sworn that David Cameron and his cabinet were elected in. I do remember being rather dismayed after the general election over something like that.

None of us here could vote for David Cameron to become Prime Minister. He is only there because he is the leader of the largest party in the lower house of parliament, similar to how Juncker is commission president because he is the lead candidate of the largest party in the EU parliament.

Then Cameron arbitrarily appointed the cabinet, which is far less democratic than the commission appointed by the EU's upper house.

We were repeatedly told that the EU commission is unaccountable and undemocratic and if that's true, then the UK cabinet must be too.

roubaixtuesday wrote:

OK your post makes points but they are not relevant to my post that you have quoted as the starting point for it.

I was responding to the part about how the system is against Brexit.

Specifically

Brexit could be done if people really wanted to do it, they would just do it, over riding the system.
Brexit will destroy itself because it is trying to break the system and the leaders will sacrifice Brexit rather than over ride the system, it isnt a plot. Just there is no longer any way to exercise democratic choice over the system.

This is typical of how the reaction to the failure of Brexit to deliver its promises is being received: it's somehow the fault of how it's been being implemented.

That IMO is a lazy analysis that singularly fails to address the fundamentals.

In the same way that remainers who think that a second referendum will erase the effects of the first are being lazy.

In my post I said nothing about a GOOD Brexit, I said nothing about it being "tickety boo" afterwards, I was not blaming the politicians for failure to be able to deliver the impossible. I fully understand that Mrs May can not possibly give everything to everybody.
With the support of parliament she could deliver a bad Brexit which hurts a lot of people, it didnt specify a "good" Brexit on the referendum paper.
These same politicians told the electorate that it would be a bad Brexit but they voted for it anyway.

mjr wrote:

meic wrote:

mjr wrote:So did the unelected unaccountable cabinet in Downing Street publicly support Remain in a bluff to trick people into voting "against" them and get the result they privately really wanted?

"Bluffing" your electorate into voting against you, totally disqualifies you from dictatorship status.

I could have sworn that David Cameron and his cabinet were elected in. I do remember being rather dismayed after the general election over something like that.

.....
Then Cameron arbitrarily appointed the cabinet, which is far less democratic than the commission appointed by the EU's upper house.
....

Appointing his unqualified Uni/public school chums (Bullingdon mates, Eton alumni) to top jobs.

Ian

With the support of parliament she could deliver a bad Brexit which hurts a lot of people, it didnt specify a "good" Brexit on the referendum paper.
These same politicians told the electorate that it would be a bad Brexit but they voted for it anyway.

So, rather than vague ramblings about how this is evidence of the "system" is against Brexit, you could provide an analysis of why politicians are unwilling to support proposals which will hurt their constituents.

It's pretty obvious, really, and the inherent contradiction exposed is why we're in the position we're in.

It's not that the "system" is against Brexit, it's that in a democracy the people will punish those who hurt them, but also punish those who disobey them.

Catch-22.