Dangerous groups on Sportives

[HexiB]

On Sunday, together with a friend, I participated in the Etape London.

We did the shorter route because frankly we've got other things to do with our day, and we just like a little challenge and a pleasurable ride. Not having done this route before, we weren't desperately happy with having to share so much of the road with so much traffic - but both of us are confident riders (I commute by bike in Central London, I've been to the top of the track in the velodrome, I know how to stick out my elbows ) so it wasn't an enormous problem.

At the start we met another lady who had never done a sportive before, and she asked our advice. We told her just to take things easy, not to take any risks, but above all to beware of the groups of male riders who were prone to risky overtaking, overtaking too close and cutting in too soon.

Oh the irony of those words.

At the 30 mile point, we were proceeding down a reasonably wide country road, when lo and behold we were swamped by yet another group of male (sorry boys - but it is always you) riders, piling down the road in an amorphous mass - passing us two abreast far too close, cutting in and making life very unpleasant. Apparently if the lead rider shouts 'on your right' this is the signal for the entire group to come so close that you are gradually forced into the verge. On this occasion there was a Landrover Discovery coming in the opposite direction - but none of the group (some of whom one has to suspect were hanging on the back for dear life) wanted to be left behind - so they just carried on despite the fact that at 2 and 3 abreast while overtaking they were in the path of the oncoming vehicle.

Eventually something had to give - experienced group riders would have backed off, called 'car up' and got themselves into single file. But this group weren't experienced, because it's just riding a bike isn't it. So the course of action they took was to swerve left to avoid the car, and unfortunately into the space I was occupying despite the fact that by this point I was yelling at them...

After some substantial tarmac surfing - I came to rest in the middle of the road. The Landrover Discovery stopped as did some other cyclists. I lay there for a little while, because despite the fact I was missing quite a lot of skin I was willing myself not to get up and thump the perpetrator. My friend thinks the bloke who knocked me off stood around sheepishly for a minute. But he didn't stop to help. Or say sorry. Or to make sure I was OK and my bike rideable. He left that to other people while he tootled on up the road to catch up with his mates.

I finished the ride despite the bloody knees, knuckles and elbows - though unfortunately took another tumble when going to the rescue of another cyclist who had fallen off. There were other cyclists who stopped to make sure I was alright, the mechanics were concerned and the first aiders great and a lovely cycle volunteer who got us to the finish. But I missed Chris Froome and then spent 2 hours in the first aid tent.

Am I cross. Yes I am cross (and very sore). Could this all have been prevented - absolutely. Bloody blokes who are inexperienced group riders nee to get it into their heads that they have a responsibility for keeping other cyclists safe and riding in a way that neither endangers or unnerves other cyclists, regardless of their ability levels.

Rant over...

[DaveP]

What can anyone say?
It creeps me out just to have A.N.Other cyclist ride up alongside and stay there briefly to pass the time of day because I don't know what he will do if there isa sudden need to single up. Will he go ahead or drop back? What ought he to do? - Never having been a club rider I don't know, and as for the question: Is he looking out for potholes in my path? Well that's real lap of the gods stuff!
I'm glad you got away with bumps and abrasions and nothing worse. I'm sorry you missed the treat at the end of the ride. And I'm particularly glad that you appear to have ended the day cross - but not discouraged!

[eileithyia]

Glad you are OK, if bumped bruised sore and very mad... I would be also...... Did no one get his number to report to the organisers... (though am guessing they would not be interested).

Trouble is give these macho riders a number and they think they are racing..... and behave as if no one else can get in their way.
We stopped over in a hotel in Norwich on the weekend, realised in the morning there were other cyclists around and asked one if they were riding in the race i was riding.. oh yes said one, we are RACING the 70 (did not establish if this was miles or kilos) today from the showground.....
So clearly not riding the 50 mile time trial i was riding... clearly a different type of racing entirely ...

A few years ago we met idiots like this; New Forest week, mixed group of families with all the different type of cycle rigs we use to get children cycling, when a large group came past us ..... or I should say... cut and weaved their way through us..... as i was undertaken by one cyclist who then zipped around in front of me to overtake a tag-a-long.... with no consideration to the fact that we had young children with us...

I believe part of the trouble is the large influx of newbie cyclists, who form their own groups rather than join traditional and experienced cycle clubs, and therefore never really learn the etiquette of bunch riding.... and, as you found, are only concerned in staying with their mates with no consideration for other road users.

[hamster]

I rode a couple of sportives and remember getting bawled at by some wally for stopping at a blind give way.
There is definitely a contingent out there who want to play at racing without the licence etc.

I ended up sharing the road on Saturday over part of a Wiggle sportive. I ended up having to shout out to prevent a collision with somebody who violently zigzagged abruptly on a hill just as I was passing - I was a metre over and had only another 30cm or so to the verge on my right (single track road). To his credit the chap apologised.

I think it's largely an experience thing, and hopefully will settle down with time. After all we do want these people to continue!

[Si]

This is one of the reasons that I don't fancy doing these big organised rides any more. Whilst the vast majority of riders are considerate and careful, it only takes one or two dodgy ones to ruin the day.

In fact I was just commenting elsewhere: last week I was working on the other side of the city, which meant riding into the city centre on moderately busy roads and then out on the main cycle path. My initial thought was - 'ah nice traffic free path to ride on...bliss', by the end of the week it was 'thank goodness I'm back in the motorised traffic away from people on bikes who don't seem to understand what a straight line is or that there might be other people on the path'.

As for the suggestion that many of the sportive problem riders are newbies who've not ridden in groups much......my local new club has many riders like this....very fit and fast, with good gear, and when they are on the club rides (leastways the ones I've done) the leader organises the group with an iron fist to make sure that everyone is doing it 'properly'. But then they separate at the end and some of them are all over the place.....you'd wonder if they'd ever ridden a bike in traffic before.

But on events I think that it's partly the old 'snaking switch off' that you find when teaching people to ride: put them at the front of the group and they switch on and start thinking about what they are doing, put them int he middle of the group and they switch off, blinding copying whatever the person in front does. This isn't just true of new riders - I've almost been put in a hedge by a CUK group where the leader safely cut the corner because he could see no one else coming, but then the rest of the group just followed him, and all came across onto my side of the road as I approached the T junction.

[mjr]

Yeah, I think the last sportive I rode (or actually rode along with, as an ineligible non-helmet-user) was a Cycle Sportives UK event where far too many people talked of "the race" and swamped us three and four abreast at a couple of points on the ride, including one where it was blatently very risky to do so IMO. I think at least one rider left in an ambulance although I didn't see the bike-on-bike incident. The organisers don't seem to really care about safety beyond enforcing BC's absurd helmet-forcing and anti-e-bike rules and there's almost no chance of them turning down anyone's money.

It creeps me out just to have A.N.Other cyclist ride up alongside and stay there briefly to pass the time of day because I don't know what he will do if there isa sudden need to single up. Will he go ahead or drop back? What ought he to do? - Never having been a club rider I don't know, and as for the question: Is he looking out for potholes in my path? Well that's real lap of the gods stuff!

In theory, the rider on the right should go ahead, completing the "overtake", if there's a need to single out... but if you're talking, you can negotiate it... if I'm on the right, I sometimes have to ask the rider on the left to go ahead and signal pulling in behind if I'm unable to accelerate past.

We stopped over in a hotel in Norwich on the weekend, realised in the morning there were other cyclists around and asked one if they were riding in the race i was riding.. oh yes said one, we are RACING the 70 (did not establish if this was miles or kilos) today from the showground.....

Bullards Tour of Norfolk. I know some people who rode it, although living an hour away, I don't know any who stopped in a hotel. There was a 70 mile route, as well as a 100 mile one and some shorter.

I think open-road cycle races are limited to 80 participants, so sportive organisers really ought to be required to take more steps to prevent their larger events continuing to be de facto races.

[Graham]

HexiB, sorry to hear about your tale of woe.

Not just newbies ( although I would suggest that some newbies are bringing the aggression & competition of driving culture into Cycling ).

Some of this is just what happens when people get together in groups.

Back in the 1990s I observed extraordinary behaviour at French Semaine Federale events and London - Brighton bike rides. Some people go a bit mad.
Widely ranging abilities aggravates the situation.

I expect you will avoid these mass-participation evens in future ? I cannot think of any easy answers.

[mjr]

Could try a different mass-participation event. I really really really like Cambridge Cycling Campaign's Reach Ride each May day bank holiday. About a thousand cyclists all rubbing along happily towards a village fair and maypole:
[youtube]-4YwMog81Vc[/youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4YwMog81Vc

[whoof]

I expect you will avoid these mass-participation evens in future ? I cannot think of any easy answers.

I've only done half a dozen or so sportives and have ridden with one or two others the I know. We have tended to set off at the back end of the leaving window and never been passed be a large group. Clearly something more fundamental needed to tackle inappropriate behaviour but it's something you might want to consider.

As to been a Sportive thing I think a great deal of it's as mentioned above people in large groups, for some reason they remove their brain. I've seen pretty stupid behaviour at the start of Audaxes and on club runs.

[PH]

In theory, the rider on the right should go ahead, completing the "overtake", if there's a need to single out... but if you're talking, you can negotiate it... if I'm on the right, I sometimes have to ask the rider on the left to go ahead and signal pulling in behind if I'm unable to accelerate past.

I was taught the opposite, with a couple of clubs, where the outside rider drops in behind the inside one. The reasoning - the rider pulling in can see the gap. If you're trying to stay on someone's wheel having them accelerate and pull in will make it harder to do. But really, it doesn’t matter, what does is that everyone knows what the others are intending. And that's the cause of the problems riding with large groups of strangers, they may know what they're doing, but there isn't that group knowledge. Even on an Audax with a big field, I'll have an extra cup of tea and leave after the main field, it's rare that I don't catch a few up to ride with if I choose to, but I'm happier not in a large group.

[mjr]

I was taught the opposite, with a couple of clubs, where the outside rider drops in behind the inside one. The reasoning - the rider pulling in can see the gap. If you're trying to stay on someone's wheel having them accelerate and pull in will make it harder to do.

I don't understand that. I was told that in a club double line, the right-hand column should be moving up while the left is drifting back (relatively), so having the outside rider pull in behind means everyone moving from accelerating to braking and there's too much risk of touching wheels... but I've just seen that British Cycling now teach that you vary which line moves up based on wind direction. That seems a bit bonkers to me, as those on the inside have less opportunity to avoid problems [edit: so shouldn't be the ones accelerating to the front].

But really, it doesn’t matter, what does is that everyone knows what the others are intending. And that's the cause of the problems riding with large groups of strangers, they may know what they're doing, but there isn't that group knowledge.

True... and so many people trying to ride on their limits amplifies many mistakes.

[foxyrider]

Firstly, sorry you had a bad experience and glad you are mostly okay.

I rode the long, 185km L'Etape London on Sunday and I have to say, some of the roads were not really suitable for large groups of cyclists - at any speed. You will always get a mix of experience and ability riding these things and it can be exacerbated by starting protocols, over enthusiasm and of course 'laddishness' although I'd like to point out there were some ladies pushing at some of the male participants on Sunday, so not a single sex thing. I'll admit to being one of the faster riders on the circuit, the groups I rode with all seemed fairly disciplined with overtaking, singling and stopping at junctions - it was actually slower, maybe less experienced riders who, maybe unknowingly, wavered across the road, rode chatting 2/3 abreast and failed to take into account other traffic (don't get me started on Essex car drivers!).

I've not long returned from Austria where I rode a couple of RTF's, their equivalent of sportives, the first had the entire 5000 riders start together, terrain and distance soon thin the pack out, indeed after the first feed station it was rare to get a group of more than a dozen. The second event started the field in three blocks of several hundred riders each separated by about fifteen minutes - again after a few kilometres things had settled down and there were no conflicts between abilities. These start protocols are the norm across the Channel, I've been riding them in Germany for a decade and its always the same regardless of field size.

From my own experience, its only in UK events where riders of mixed ability are thrown together that there is any conflict made worse by the idea that lots of small groups cause other road users less problem than a single large group - in theory possibly but it invites dangerous overtakes etc as they will have to negotiate maybe several miles of riders rather than sit behind a larger group for most likely just a short distance - you don't start a marathon in groups of twenty so why bikes?

There are protocols for verbal warnings when groups are riding/interacting, a shout of 'right' (lenks in Germany/Austria) is a warning to those being overtaken that faster 'traffic' is passing on that side but also makes riders further back in the fast string aware that they will be overtaking slower 'traffic'. The overtakers should certainly single out, you always drop behind unless invited forward, although its not unreasonable if the road/traffic allows for the faster group to remain doubled up, of course the reverse is also true and there should never be more than three riders abreast during the manoeuvre. Something I saw on Sunday several times were slower riders trying to jump into a faster moving passing train, not at the back but in the middle, a definite no no and potentially very dangerous.

None of the above is intended as put down/exoneration/excuse and I'm all for people getting out on their bikes and taking part. But there is always a catch, you don't have to pass a test, have a medical or have a licence to take part in these events, introduce that and you alienate most of the field who 'don't want to race'. The consequence unfortunately will always be accidents, maybe a more hands on pre start briefing, more information on etiquette in event handbooks etc could be the answer - its the line some European events use with future entry penalties for those not adhering to traffic regulations / event rules.

Sorry this was such a long post!

[HexiB]

Thanks for all of the thoughtful replies.

I'm not discouraged - but I will think twice about which events I enter

Maybe the key educational thing is that 'when undertaking an overtaking manoeuvre, the overtaking cyclist(s) should ensure that it is safe to do so, allowing sufficient room to overtake without endangering other road users or causing the cyclist they are overtaking to change their course or progress'.

[Si]

In theory, the rider on the right should go ahead, completing the "overtake", if there's a need to single out... but if you're talking, you can negotiate it... if I'm on the right, I sometimes have to ask the rider on the left to go ahead and signal pulling in behind if I'm unable to accelerate past.

I was taught the opposite, with a couple of clubs, where the outside rider drops in behind the inside one. The reasoning - the rider pulling in can see the gap. If you're trying to stay on someone's wheel having them accelerate and pull in will make it harder to do. But really, it doesn’t matter, what does is that everyone knows what the others are intending. And that's the cause of the problems riding with large groups of strangers, they may know what they're doing, but there isn't that group knowledge. Even on an Audax with a big field, I'll have an extra cup of tea and leave after the main field, it's rare that I don't catch a few up to ride with if I choose to, but I'm happier not in a large group.

Yup, every group and organisation I've ridden with has the outside rider pulling in behind if the group needs to single out. Means the pulling in rider has to slow rather than accelerate to get in, and slowing is easier than accelerating so you can do it quicker.

[mjr]

Yup, every group and organisation I've ridden with has the outside rider pulling in behind if the group needs to single out. Means the pulling in rider has to slow rather than accelerate to get in, and slowing is easier than accelerating so you can do it quicker.

But surely an overtaking rider should ordinarily be going faster than the inside rider so wouldn't be accelerating?

The group I ride with most often negotiates the merge every time, with signals and/or words. It's safer that way if you can... plus roads here tend to be either so busy you don't ride two abreast or so quiet that you rarely single.