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Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 13 Nov 2016, 3:27pm
by meic
That bike only looks strange because it is naked!
Stick racks, four panniers and a saddlebag on it then it will look just like my bike with drops instead of butterflies.
Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 13 Nov 2016, 3:32pm
by willem jongman
650 B is an old French intermediate size that has made a rather spectacular comeback. In the US, where they have dubbed wide 622 tyres 29ers (bu tthey are the same rim size as 28 inch), they now call the 650b tyres 27.5's, vaguely suggesting that they ar a tad bigger than the old British 27 inch size, which they are not. They are actually smaller. So for the benefit of anyone who is confused:
etrto 630 is also 27 inch
etro 622 is also 700c or 28 inch or twenty nine
etrto 584 is also 650 b or 27.5
ertro 559 is also 26 inch
etrto 584 is a nice intermediate size popular with US audax riders, but touring tyres are still quite hard to get. I would love to have an audax bike in the size, but not a loaded tourer.
Typically, the smaller the wheel size, the wider the tyres it is used with, so the final diameter of rim and tyre may be surprsingly similar (negating the effects on gearing and rolling obstacles. See here for some rough estimates of diameters as examples:
etrto 630 with 32 mm tyres: diameter 694 mm
etrto 622 with 35 mm tyres: diameter 692 mm
etrto 584 with 42 mm tyres: diameter 668 mm
etrto 559 with 52 mm tyres: diameter 663 mm
Put 21 mm tyres on a typical road bike, and the diameter is almost exactly the same as that of a etrto rim with 52 mm tyres. Comfort is not the same, and on any rough road the fatter tyre will be faster, as long as yo don't ride Tour de France speeds, when wind resistance of narrow tyres is rather less.
Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 13 Nov 2016, 4:01pm
by meic
andrew_s wrote:I'd recommend 700c, but make sure the frame you pick will allow for wider tyres.
The main difference to your progress will be made by the tyres you select, and there's a wider choice in 700 than the other possible sizes. Touring tyres are usually chosen to be somewhere around 32 -35 mm, as allowing a good compromise between being reasonably fast on road, where you will do most of your riding, but still allowing reasonable progress on most tracks.
26" choice is restricted at the narrower, faster tyre end (1.1 -1.3" wide), and whilst there are very good fast tyres in 650B from Compass or Grand Bois, they are expensive (£50 each), and in both cases, you would be unlikely to find a similar replacement in a random local bike shop if you wrecked a tyre by running over the bottom of a bottle or something.
Wheel strength is not really relevant. Most 26" wheels give away any extra strength by only using 32 spokes rather than 36, and a 700 wheel is more than strong enough for touring loads anyway. Riding into a car, or landing a big jump badly are the situations where the added strength of a smaller wheel may be wanted.
I wouldn't recommend ordering a custom frame.
Unless you have unusual body proportions, or you are certain that you have design requirements that can't be met by an off the peg frame, you are likely to end up with a bike that is very similar to off the peg, having spent £800 more. If extra requirements are in the way of fixtures and fittings, it will usually be cheaper and quicker to get extra braze-ons added to a frame, and the frame resprayed, than to go custom.
The current "standard touring bike" is probably the Surly Long Haul Trucker, available as a frameset for around £350. It's aimed at 4-pannier cycle camping, much like the Dawes Galaxy used to be.
I dont think that is a valid point, if you want strong wheels you can build them in 36 spoke versions they are common enough. It would be equally valid to say avoid 700 wheels because most of them come with only 20 or 24 spokes nowadays.
If you want a touring bike you can make it with 32 or 36 spoke wheels equally easily in 700 or 26".
All mine are 36 except on the tandem and one 32 spoke 700 wheel when I found a bargain Open Pro rim in 32 hole only.
An exception would be the Rohloff which only comes 32 hole, I imagine in both 26" and 700.
Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 13 Nov 2016, 4:07pm
by willem jongman
Rohloff now also comes in 36 spokes if you want. Whether you need that is a different matter, given that the wheel is symmetrical, unlike a derailleur wheel.
Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 13 Nov 2016, 4:08pm
by bohrsatom
meic wrote:That bike only looks strange because it is naked!
Stick racks, four panniers and a saddlebag on it then it will look just like my bike with drops instead of butterflies.
Maybe you're right, but it just looks like a Brompton to me
Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 13 Nov 2016, 4:13pm
by meic
When you are over 6 foot they give that appearance even with 700 wheels.
Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 13 Nov 2016, 4:39pm
by NeilM
Well, looks like I have opened a right old can of worms.
Lots to think about here, thanks and keep it coming.
Mention of 1990's mtb's gave me an idea and I had a dig about in the garage and found a 20" Marin frame complete with rack and mudguard mounts, so I may have a bit of a dummy run using bits from my garage stock... which is erm, considerable
I hate throwing things away.
I also have a 653 Rourke frame coming my way soon, as well as a 1980's Keith Coppell 531 road bike that could easily be adapted with a triple chainset and 11-32 cassette.
I build all my own bikes from framesets and also build my own wheels so I can mess about with experimental builds to find out what fits and suits.
Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 13 Nov 2016, 4:45pm
by willem jongman
That sounds like a very good idea.
Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 13 Nov 2016, 4:49pm
by mercalia
bohrsatom wrote:For my style of touring in the UK orEurope I prefer 700c, mostly because I am quite tall and I think larger frames with 26" wheels can look a little silly as you can end up with a massive head tube:
A benefit of 26" is if you are going to remote places then you are more likely to find spares. If I cycled these areas then I could live with a slightly strange looking bike, but I don't so I won't!
looks ok to me. If you are tall and you dont want to look silly you have to go for an old fashioned classic looking frame like the old Dawes Galaxies ( 25"/65 cm ) but they bend under stress ( I had the Horozon version ). I think modern designers to some extent solve the strange look by having slanting top tubes and long seat pins and longer than normal steerers?
I assume the pic is a 26" wheeler? I am glad for that pic as now I know what a large frame 26" Surly looks like. I might be interested in one. so you know what size that is? looks bigger than a 62cm?
Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 13 Nov 2016, 6:35pm
by foxyrider
mercalia wrote:foxyrider wrote:mercalia wrote:
Are mfers moving away from 26", maybe some one else would like to comment?
if you visit any shop selling
proper ATB's you will find almost zero with 26" wheels, instead there are bucket loads of '27.5"' (actually 650B) wheeled machines and the misnamed 29ers (actually 700c). Some brands no longer make any 26" wheel machines.
eg maybe name a few bikes. not sure I know what an proper ATB is . I know mt bikes (are they not 26" still? ) and rough stuff tourers ( Nomad still 26"? ) I havent bought a bike in 20 years and not been in a cycle shop other than Halfords for the same time so can only go on what I hear here and this the first time heard about this shift - I have vaguely heard of 650b
ATB = mtb for this conversation, look out the range from any largish brand, Trek, Spesh, Giant, Cube, Focus, kona, Marin etc - go into WHS and look at a mtn bike magazine or buyers guide. The 'revolution' started about four years ago with 29ers followed a couple of years later by the 650b machines - 26 do still get made - as kids bikes!
Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 13 Nov 2016, 7:33pm
by bohrsatom
mercalia wrote:I assume the pic is a 26" wheeler? I am glad for that pic as now I know what a large frame 26" Surly looks like. I might be interested in one. so you know what size that is? looks bigger than a 62cm?
According to the website I found the photo on it's a 62cm 26" LHT
Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 13 Nov 2016, 7:51pm
by mercalia
foxyrider wrote:mercalia wrote:foxyrider wrote:
if you visit any shop selling proper ATB's you will find almost zero with 26" wheels, instead there are bucket loads of '27.5"' (actually 650B) wheeled machines and the misnamed 29ers (actually 700c). Some brands no longer make any 26" wheel machines.
eg maybe name a few bikes. not sure I know what an proper ATB is . I know mt bikes (are they not 26" still? ) and rough stuff tourers ( Nomad still 26"? ) I havent bought a bike in 20 years and not been in a cycle shop other than Halfords for the same time so can only go on what I hear here and this the first time heard about this shift - I have vaguely heard of 650b
ATB = mtb for this conversation, look out the range from any largish brand, Trek, Spesh, Giant, Cube, Focus, kona, Marin etc - go into WHS and look at a mtn bike magazine or buyers guide. The 'revolution' started about four years ago with 29ers followed a couple of years later by the 650b machines - 26 do still get made - as kids bikes!
am really surprised - whenever I rode on tracks and roughish ground my Dawes Horizon with 700c wheels felt very un gamely due to the large wheels compared to my 1-Down with 26", the Horizon just not agile, not able to negotiate the bumps and roughs, just too big! and as for carrying the bike over styles.........
Also couldnt go real slow on those large wheels
Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 13 Nov 2016, 8:31pm
by Bonefishblues
I'm sure that fashion plays no part in this either. No sir.
Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 13 Nov 2016, 8:50pm
by foxyrider
mercalia wrote:foxyrider wrote:mercalia wrote:
eg maybe name a few bikes. not sure I know what an proper ATB is . I know mt bikes (are they not 26" still? ) and rough stuff tourers ( Nomad still 26"? ) I havent bought a bike in 20 years and not been in a cycle shop other than Halfords for the same time so can only go on what I hear here and this the first time heard about this shift - I have vaguely heard of 650b
ATB = mtb for this conversation, look out the range from any largish brand, Trek, Spesh, Giant, Cube, Focus, kona, Marin etc - go into WHS and look at a mtn bike magazine or buyers guide. The 'revolution' started about four years ago with 29ers followed a couple of years later by the 650b machines - 26 do still get made - as kids bikes!
am really surprised - whenever I rode on tracks and roughish ground my Dawes Horizon with 700c wheels felt very un gamely due to the large wheels compared to my 1-Down with 26", the Horizon just not agile, not able to negotiate the bumps and roughs, just too big! and as for carrying the bike over styles.........
Also couldnt go real slow on those large wheels
The Horizon, to be fair wasn't intended for any kind of off tarmac riding - not exactly a mover on the roads either. No idea why you couldn't ride slow on it, the things are not exactly racing whippets but designed for low speed loaded stability - in theory.
Re: What Size Wheels?
Posted: 14 Nov 2016, 6:01am
by Kapalasa
26" mountain bikes are also going out of fashion here in South Africa, which is a shame as my touring bicycle is one. If I buy tyres now, how long do tyres last unused, before they perish?