Thanks for the Wind Farms

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PDQ Mobile
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Wind making over 17% at the moment.
That's 6.3 GW, and demand is quite high(for the time of day)
All those Xmas lights!!
irc
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by irc »

Psamathe wrote:Also the UK needs to look more at the nature of it's demand as it is far more complex than totalling up generating megawatts to demand megawatts. A significant consideration is how our generating capacity can respond to demands on supply - and nuclear is not very good at that.


But it is better than wind or solar. Nuclear is 24/7. Still works when it's dark with no wind.

My preferred low carbon option would be nuclear baseload. Gas to cover fluctuations in demand. Along with a few new pump storage hydro schemes.

It isn't theoretical. The French did it years ago. France produces only 3/5th of the CO2 the UK does for each unit of energy consumed because it has a high proportion of nuclear. .

axe78w.jpg.png


http://euanmearns.com/co2-emissions-who ... dirty-men/
Psamathe
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by Psamathe »

irc wrote:...My preferred low carbon option would be nuclear baseload. Gas to cover fluctuations in demand. Along with a few new pump storage hydro schemes.

It isn't theoretical. The French did it years ago. France produces only 3/5th of the CO2 the UK does for each unit of electricity because it has a high proportion of nuclear. .
...

And unfortunately for France and it's dependence on nuclear they are now facing the prospect of power cuts through this winter as their nuclear faces "problems" (warning issues by the French grid operator). So for me not really a great solution for us. http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-power-winteroutlook-idUKKBN1332C6

Ian
landsurfer
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by landsurfer »

Sort of linking in to the dirty diesel debate on other posts.
There are banks of diesel gensets just waiting to be switched on to provide power when the the "renewable" supplies fail.
The companies providing this service are being paid even when the gensets are not on line.
There are thousands of these gensets around the country.
Every CO2 saving the country makes will be wiped out in a few hours when they are fired up......
Of course they already have been ...
More than once ...
The one along the A38 between Exeter and Plymouth is quite small.... 18 diesel gensets.....
Reality check !!!
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
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RickH
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by RickH »

landsurfer wrote:Sort of linking in to the dirty diesel debate on other posts.
There are banks of diesel gensets just waiting to be switched on to provide power when the the "renewable" supplies fail.
The companies providing this service are being paid even when the gensets are not on line.
There are thousands of these gensets around the country.
Every CO2 saving the country makes will be wiped out in a few hours when they are fired up......
Of course they already have been ...
More than once ...
The one along the A38 between Exeter and Plymouth is quite small.... 18 diesel gensets.....
Reality check !!!

They aren't just (or possibly not mainly) for renewable supply failures. They are used to keep/replace electricity supply during local infrastructure failure. The substation near the school my grandchildren go to died (possibly vandal or attempted metal theft related, I can't remember the details). There was a big generator on the back of a lorry trailer running there for quite a few days until it was fixed.
Former member of the Cult of the Polystyrene Head Carbuncle.
PDQ Mobile
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Wind now making 18+% of measured UK demand.
7.19 GW.
It's closing in on Nuclear!!
And coal is in the gutter!!
(Only light hearted banter by the way)
M
It almost makes one fond of this gale.
landsurfer
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by landsurfer »

These are banks of generator sets, usually ISO shipping containers linked in banks. The largest i've been at was 32 containers, in a compound remotely started and monitored. You must be able to cut the air with a chainsaw when they kick off ...
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
Abradable Chin
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by Abradable Chin »

[XAP]Bob wrote:Couple of reasons they might not all be running:
The demand might not be there...

I'm uninformed on this, but I'm a bit surprised that this could be the case. Coal and nuclear do take ages to lose heat, but gas turbines can be throttled back in seconds, so do we really have days when no gas-fired power stations are generating, and we still have too much power, so feather the wind turbines?
I'd previously seen turbines not working in wind, and suspected there was a sensor fault, so they were deactivated rather than risk destruction. Up in Derby there are two huge turbines put in by S-T water that are hardly ever allowed to turn because they interfere with radar at Castle Donington airport, and no amount of computer jiggery-pokery has managed to filter their reflections out.
pwa
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by pwa »

PDQ Mobile wrote:Wind now making 18+% of measured UK demand.
7.19 GW.
It's closing in on Nuclear!!
And coal is in the gutter!!
(Only light hearted banter by the way)
M
It almost makes one fond of this gale.


Except, of course, when it is really windy the turbines are closed down to protect them.
irc
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by irc »

RickH wrote:They aren't just (or possibly not mainly) for renewable supply failures.


They are actually.

National Grid, which operates the UK’s electricity network, said small power generators had bid for 15-year contracts starting in 2020-21, as part of the government’s capacity market reforms.

The contracts, for firms that produce below 100MW, will see them paid to be on standby in case of a shortfall from power sources such as coal, gas or wind.


Coal! Only a shortfall because it is being phased out. They are of course to provide power when it isn'r sunny or windy. It's rare I agree with Greenpeace but in this case they are spot on.

A spokesperson for Greenpeace said: “Britain is one of the world’s leading economies and the idea that in the 21st century we may have to rely on highly polluting diesel farms to keep the lights on is quite embarrassing.


https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ional-grid
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Nukes are not inherently bad or unreliable.
They are plagued by politicians who won't let them be built in time to take over from those being decommissioned...
They are plagued by a regulatory framework which results in them having the lowest fatality rate per TWh generated than any other electricity source - and not just marginally either...

They provide an excellent base load for the grid - we still need gas/pumped hydro/pure hydro etc. to deal with the peaks/troughs...
Or of course to get better local storage sorted out..
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
PDQ Mobile
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by PDQ Mobile »

pwa wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Wind now making 18+% of measured UK demand.
7.19 GW.
It's closing in on Nuclear!!
And coal is in the gutter!!
(Only light hearted banter by the way)
M
It almost makes one fond of this gale.


Except, of course, when it is really windy the turbines are closed down to protect them.


Well it's pretty rough at the moment (although it's perhaps slightly less than earlier)and output is still over 18% of demand. 7.06 GW.
So it doesn't seem as if that is the case just at the moment.
I am sure it can happen though. And understandably.


There is unquestionably an anti wind energy lobby that puts such stuff about. Anti-cycling for that matter too.
I count the Mail amongst them.
In fact it is pretty much anti anything that does fit their narrow vision of right and wrong.
irc
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by irc »

PDQ Mobile wrote:Well it's pretty rough at the moment (although it's perhaps slightly less than earlier)and output is still over 18% of demand. 7.06


Nobody disputes that in average conditions wind power works and while more expensive than gas/coal is not outrageously more expensive.

The real expense of wind though is the fact it is a parallel system. It is built in addition to the gas/coal/nuclear system.

Gas/coal/nuclear can be built in a few locations placed to minimise the length of power lines needed to connect them to the grid. Wind by it's nature needs widespread power lines over a huge extent of the country. So relying on a big wind contribution means paying for the wind farms and the extra distribution network all in addition to the existing system which needs to be retained for those frequent times when wind provided less than 1% of demand.

So we have built a subsidised wind power network and have reached the point where we need to add subsidised diesel generators to the network to keep the lights on.

Like a householder with an unreliable CH system who solves the problem by installing another system alongside it to use when the first breaks down.
PDQ Mobile
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by PDQ Mobile »

irc wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Well it's pretty rough at the moment (although it's perhaps slightly less than earlier)and output is still over 18% of demand. 7.06


Nobody disputes that in average conditions wind power works and while more expensive than gas/coal is not outrageously more expensive.

The real expense of wind though is the fact it is a parallel system. It is built in addition to the gas/coal/nuclear system.

Gas/coal/nuclear can be built in a few locations placed to minimise the length of power lines needed to connect them to the grid. Wind by it's nature needs widespread power lines over a huge extent of the country. So relying on a big wind contribution means paying for the wind farms and the extra distribution network all in addition to the existing system which needs to be retained for those frequent times when wind provided less than 1% of demand.

So we have built a subsidised wind power network and have reached the point where we need to add subsidised diesel generators to the network to keep the lights on.

Like a householder with an unreliable CH system who solves the problem by installing another system alongside it to use when the first breaks down.


I broadly agree.

But wind is as I write now making 19%(20 coming up :D )
That means coal and gas can be, and have been, thottled back therefore, in effect, saving their burning for a later date to be announced.
It's a sort of storage!
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Extra cabling? We have a good national grid. It's national, and that's key.

The power stations are not located where they are needed, but they are best located for other reasons. There are some locations where industry is also located (many of the same geographic features needed)

The offshore farms run cables back to land as part of their construction. Most other places are pretty much already there...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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