Thanks for the Wind Farms

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rjb
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by rjb »

al_yrpal wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 3:10pm The I Mech E were suggesting compressed air but that seems to have been dropped

Al
A 50Mw trial plant is being built near Manchester. This will liquify compressed air for use when demand is high. Commissioning due next year.:wink:

Image

https://highviewpower.com/plants/
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francovendee
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by francovendee »

al_yrpal wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 3:10pm The I Mech E were suggesting compressed air but that seems to have been dropped

Al
This seems an idea worth exploring.
If it works then it's surely a better solution than hooking up batteries to the grid?
If the energy used is surplus then any losses are immaterial.
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by roubaixtuesday »

francovendee wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 8:29am
al_yrpal wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 3:10pm The I Mech E were suggesting compressed air but that seems to have been dropped

Al
This seems an idea worth exploring.
If it works then it's surely a better solution than hooking up batteries to the grid?
If the energy used is surplus then any losses are immaterial.
It's massively inefficient. But still maybe worthwhile, for the reasons you state.

Most (virtually all in the UK AIUI) grid scale batteries aren't used for true storage, but for ultra short timescale load balancing, just a few seconds whilst other power sources are wound up, because you can turn them on almost instantly. It's notable that battery storage is always quoted in impressive output (MW) terms rather than storage (MWhr).

Gas power is very low capital, so using gas to fill in on low wind days makes a lot of sense - it adds relatively little overall to carbon emissions but reduces a lot the total scale of wind power and associated transmission needed to power the whole country.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by al_yrpal »

It maybe inefficient but well worthwhile if it captures wasted electrical ecopower at night as we do right now. Pumped water storage is another possibility. These technologies focus attention on the problem of instantaneous electrical power wastage and like all such things large scale examples will provoke others into experimenting and developing better solutions.

Al
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roubaixtuesday
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by roubaixtuesday »

al_yrpal wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 9:42am It maybe inefficient but well worthwhile if it captures wasted electrical ecopower at night as we do right now. Pumped water storage is another possibility. These technologies focus attention on the problem of instantaneous electrical power wastage and like all such things large scale examples will provoke others into experimenting and developing better solutions.

Al
AFAICT there's little or no prospect of further viable pumped storage in the UK - simply no viable sites. I think we get some via the Norway interconnector - topology obviously favours Norway...

Car batteries is the big potential for storage/ load balancing. Would be interesting to compare the total storage capacity if the UK car fleet was fully electrified* vs say Dinorwig**

*20 million vehicles at 60kwh battery capacity = 1200 GWhr

** 9 GWhr https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station
ambodach
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by ambodach »

661-Pete wrote: 3 Dec 2016, 7:10pm There is another technology - pumped-storage hydroelectricity - which might offer a solution to the 'windless/sunless days' problem. I don't know enough about the subject to expand on this. The downside is that such a system requires a hilly or mountainous location, so is likely to be constructed in areas of natural beauty where it could be deemed an eyesore. But a non-polluting eyesore, at that!

A pity that there is only one such facility in the UK (Dinorweg). Other countries have more.
Scotland is still in the UK and has at least 2 pumped storage facilities. One at Cruachan on Loch Awe and another on Loch Ness.
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al_yrpal
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by al_yrpal »

Deep lagoons near wind farms seemed to be a possibility once. Pump seawater in, let it out via an efficient turbine connected to a generator as needed. But, no incentive to build lagoons

Al
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axel_knutt
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by axel_knutt »

ambodach wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 8:29pm
661-Pete wrote: 3 Dec 2016, 7:10pm There is another technology - pumped-storage hydroelectricity - which might offer a solution to the 'windless/sunless days' problem. I don't know enough about the subject to expand on this. The downside is that such a system requires a hilly or mountainous location, so is likely to be constructed in areas of natural beauty where it could be deemed an eyesore. But a non-polluting eyesore, at that!

A pity that there is only one such facility in the UK (Dinorweg). Other countries have more.
Scotland is still in the UK and has at least 2 pumped storage facilities. One at Cruachan on Loch Awe and another on Loch Ness.
Britain's first was the Stwlan/Ffestiniog system built in 1963, then there another one under construction at Coire Glas/Loch Lochy.
Back in my fellwalking days I went for a look round Dinorwic. Interesting and very impressive. I once built a system to extend the control cable between this radio and handset a mile down the tunnel from the surface to Cruachan control room.
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ANTONISH
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by ANTONISH »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 8:47am
francovendee wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 8:29am
al_yrpal wrote: 18 Jan 2022, 3:10pm The I Mech E were suggesting compressed air but that seems to have been dropped

Al
This seems an idea worth exploring.
If it works then it's surely a better solution than hooking up batteries to the grid?
If the energy used is surplus then any losses are immaterial.
It's massively inefficient. But still maybe worthwhile, for the reasons you state.

Most (virtually all in the UK AIUI) grid scale batteries aren't used for true storage, but for ultra short timescale load balancing, just a few seconds whilst other power sources are wound up, because you can turn them on almost instantly. It's notable that battery storage is always quoted in impressive output (MW) terms rather than storage (MWhr).

Gas power is very low capital, so using gas to fill in on low wind days makes a lot of sense - it adds relatively little overall to carbon emissions but reduces a lot the total scale of wind power and associated transmission needed to power the whole country.
Well it's an interesting thread.
We face a situation where the government want to move from gas to electricity (heat pumps) for home heating.
I'm not an expert on heat pumps but the industry sources I've looked at and listened to on radio suggest that there will be a 3:1 gain in heat energy from the electrical energy input. There will be many situations where a heat pump cannot be easily installed - perhaps we should be looking anew at electrical storage heaters - which at least are lower in capital cost and fairly reliable.
To do this nationwide is going to require a massive increase in electrical generation - obviously an expansion of wind power will be an important factor.
Then we have the projected change from ICE to electrical vehicles. Further unquantifiable electrical generation required ( we don't know the future take up, how long motorists will be able to cling on to their ageing ICE's, whether the mooted ban on individual car ownership is likely to be enacted - obviously this measure will apply to the proles, the great, the good and the very wealthy will have essential owner exemption )
Again an expansion of off shore wind power will be necessary.
Here again the problem of storage - sufficient to match the loss of wind power in still conditions over the number of days the conditions last.
Using batteries is at best a short term fix - 1300 GWhr sounds a lot but it could be more that matched by a conventional power plant and of course after 1hr at 1300GW the battery energy will have been consumed.

We need a means of reliable large scale, low carbon, electrical energy generation - to my mind only nuclear energy will provide this.
thirdcrank
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by thirdcrank »

I depend on Old Sparky in Private Eye for guidance about future energy supply and the point about nuclear seems to be that the EDF system is touted as proven technology but it isn't.
ANTONISH
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by ANTONISH »

thirdcrank wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 10:38am I depend on Old Sparky in Private Eye for guidance about future energy supply and the point about nuclear seems to be that the EDF system is touted as proven technology but it isn't.
I haven't read Private Eye for some time - I take your point - the EDF system has been bedevilled by problems.
Other systems are available - I think mini nukes would provide some useful capacity - what I don't see is a viable, large scale, low carbon alternative.
rjb
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by rjb »

One of the main issues with nuclear generation is their inability to shift load on demand. Nuclear fission has an inherrant problem with the decay products from fission building up and poisoning the reactor if the load is dropped. At worst this can build up to the point where the reactor shuts itself down. Hence nuclear generation was always known as base load with flexible generation ie fossil fuelled used to meet the peaks and troughs. Hence we need a balance of generation to cope with demand. At present battery storage is one solution but operators use this as a commercial opportunity to maximise their profit, topping up when prices are low and selling when prices are high.
I've been banging on about this for years. The country's strategic assets should never have been sold off, but kept in public ownership.
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Jdsk
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by Jdsk »

roubaixtuesday wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 10:41am
al_yrpal wrote: 19 Jan 2022, 9:42am It maybe inefficient but well worthwhile if it captures wasted electrical ecopower at night as we do right now. Pumped water storage is another possibility. These technologies focus attention on the problem of instantaneous electrical power wastage and like all such things large scale examples will provoke others into experimenting and developing better solutions.
AFAICT there's little or no prospect of further viable pumped storage in the UK - simply no viable sites. I think we get some via the Norway interconnector - topology obviously favours Norway...

Car batteries is the big potential for storage/ load balancing. Would be interesting to compare the total storage capacity if the UK car fleet was fully electrified* vs say Dinorwig**

*20 million vehicles at 60kwh battery capacity = 1200 GWhr

** 9 GWhr https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station
Yes. Lots of possibilities out there.

And a perceived inability to store shouldn't slow the introduction of intermittent renewables.

Car batteries in vehicle-to-grid (and vehicle-to-home) are looking more and more feasible.

The east Oxford project uses both a lithium battery and a vanadium flow battery: very interesting technology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by Jdsk »

And this is an area where the UK has enormous competitive advantage, especially superb R and D and high-end manufacturing and extensive existing collaboration between manufacturers and Universities.

It would help if we removed the recently installed barriers to trade and collaboration.

Jonathan
roubaixtuesday
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Re: Thanks for the Wind Farms

Post by roubaixtuesday »

rjb wrote: 20 Jan 2022, 12:26pm One of the main issues with nuclear generation is their inability to shift load on demand. Nuclear fission has an inherrant problem with the decay products from fission building up and poisoning the reactor if the load is dropped. At worst this can build up to the point where the reactor shuts itself down. Hence nuclear generation was always known as base load with flexible generation ie fossil fuelled used to meet the peaks and troughs. Hence we need a balance of generation to cope with demand. At present battery storage is one solution but operators use this as a commercial opportunity to maximise their profit, topping up when prices are low and selling when prices are high.
I've been banging on about this for years. The country's strategic assets should never have been sold off, but kept in public ownership.
re emboldened - surely this is exactly what you want storage systems to do?
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