Cycling UK Forum

I have difficulty accepting that anybody would enter a traffic roundabout relying on sound alone without looking.
If they did do that sort of thing, with or without headphones, their days would be numbered.

The device that the lady had was an iPhone. I have ridden with the odd cyclist who has been playing with such toys as they ride, wouldnt it have been a better bit of gratuitous ungrounded speculation to assume that playing with such a toy could have been the reason for the distraction. I see plenty of car drivers doing just that, even entering roundabouts.

IME sound is a highly unreliable means for assessing the road environment. In urban areas there's too much auditory complexity (noise in all senses of the word); in rural areas speeds tend to be higher and wind noise often becomes an issue. Too many false positives and false negatives to be able to rely on it. Only sight is accurate enough, although to be fair once you've visually confirmed a vehicle's presence sound does let you monitor it to some degree. And yes, if can (false positives and negatives notwithstanding) alert you to vehicles approaching from behind, though unless you're the sort of person who suddenly peels right without looking behind there's no real benefit to that, even though it feels like there is. YMMV.

But in any case, this all seems fairly irrelevant to the incident at hand, where it would appear that the HGV was already on the roundabout that the victim was approaching, and it seems it would thus have been readily visible without even having to remember to look away from a line of sight consistent with the path of approach (and note that the victim was reportedly a frequent cyclist, and one accustomed to riding with headphones: this is someone experienced, and you don't get to be experienced if you don't look at roundabouts; we are all, however, still at risk of the very human error of complacently misreading another road user's intentions). Besides, AFAICR the coroner's comments (those quoted, at least) appear not to relate to loss of environmental awareness due to sensory deprivation, but to loss of concentration on process through cognitive distraction. Very different things.

meic wrote:The device that the lady had was an iPhone. I have ridden with the odd cyclist who has been playing with such toys as they ride, wouldnt it have been a better bit of gratuitous ungrounded speculation to assume that playing with such a toy could have been the reason for the distraction. I see plenty of car drivers doing just that, even entering roundabouts.

It certainly seems a far more plausible hypothesis than the idea that listening to music causes distraction of this nature and magnitude. (A reminder: research has shown that surgeons who listen to self-chosen music in theatre have better outcomes.)

Hi,

mjr wrote:

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:The problem with putting in structures to slow traffic is drivers just ignore them impatiently, if that's the roundabout then I would be moving at speed there for sure, like I do on those roundabouts, getting your speed correct is a large part of staying safe I.M.O.

So what should people with "incorrect" speed do? Give up cycling if they can't afford an e-bike? And would an e-bike's 15mph be "correct"?

Its a fact that if you attempt to take a fast roundabout slowly the drivers will just find you a ugly hazard.
I am in no way blaming slow riders, even I, and I an no slouch, find it dangerous sometimes.
I don't have the answer just stating I.M.O. what I see.

I would never instruct a newbie to take to the road today, its TOO bloody dangerous.
I started cycling because I had no money when cars were a complete luxury.
My partner phones me every ride when I am just 30 mins over due.

I cant see a answer anytime soon, that would be acceptable to car drivers.

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:I would never instruct a newbie to take to the road today, its TOO bloody dangerous.
I started cycling because I had no money when cars were a complete luxury.
My partner phones me every ride when I am just 30 mins over due.

Mine too ... until she realises my phone may be on , but is buried in my saddle bag ..

There are plenty of areas in the UK where experience, hazard perception, spatial awareness and the maximum use of your senses abilities are required to cycle.
But there are 100's, nay a 1000 times more places where they are not, the lanes of the Cornish Rivera is one, the East Yorks Ridings and many others.
I ride the lanes in South Yorkshire every day. Choosing my route as my peace and quiet and mindset require that day.
Cycling through Sheffield is another matter.
I make myself as big as possible at all times, hogging the centre of lanes, lights flashing and arms waving.

I would recommend any newbie to ride with an experienced "buddy" and learn by example .... or osmosis ....
Reading the press and comments on here I have to feel that she made a mistake, a simple mistake, that took her young life.
Mistakes are human.
It happens in the mountains, in the green water swell, .... and on the roads ...

it's all too easy for coroners to introduce factors that AFAICT have no bearing on matters, use the words 'could' or 'may' and that is extrapolated by joe blogs as the absolute reason. As a few have said, the headphones/sound is not a factor, I'd say it was virtually impossible to prove it to be so and as Bez and many others say, best to keep the music off in the car and in fact screaming kids too

It was suggested on road cc that the rider and HGV were in fact coming from the same direction, don't know if that is accurate?
As for the mention of helmets, well it's pretty much guaranteed the helmet Nazis will be out in force, snapped spinal cord wasn't it that ultimately killed her, so a helmet would not alter this in any way. Speculation surrounding whether the helmet she normally wore would or would not have prevented the fracture are merely that, speculative.

she possibly made a relatively small error in judgement which cost her her life, however all the focus is completely on her, there is no mention from the coroner re the HGV/driver, what it/they were doing/not doing and its positioning before and during her avoidance/non collision with such.
Dead people can't give evidence can they
I just hope the family find peace and don't start up a campaign regarding helmets and earphones for people on bikes which simply would not b helpful in the slightest

The utility cyclist wrote:It was suggested on road cc that the rider and HGV were in fact coming from the same direction, don't know if that is accurate?

Sort of but from different exits. That roundabout is known locally as Long's Corner.

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/cyclist- ... story.html

If you look at the last picture in this link, you'll see several BMW police cars. My understanding is that the lorry was joining the roundabout from this direction, Boothferry Road. The cyclist was joining the roundabout from Flatgate/Hull Road, which is the next 'exit', just visible on the left where the road sign is.

The next exit is Thorpe Road, where it narrows to one lane only. If the incident is where the ambulance is parked, it's only just onto Thorpe Road.

Possibly the cyclist filtered onto the roundabout just as the lorry was moving over to the left to take Thorpe Road, in which case it's plausible that the driver didn't know the cyclist was there. I wonder if she believed the lorry was going round for the next exit. Either way visibility is good across all three exits.

As to reports that she had been on a cycle path earlier, I don't know which one, unless it's the one on Station Road which joins Flatgate but that's nearly a mile away.

ossie wrote:

mjr wrote:
And yet, loads of people who criticise listeners wear fat straps in front of their ears that cause lots of wind noise.

Perhaps the most ridiculous post I've ever read on here.

Why? Do you think wind rushing over thick straps is always silent?

mjr wrote:

ossie wrote:

mjr wrote:
And yet, loads of people who criticise listeners wear fat straps in front of their ears that cause lots of wind noise.

Perhaps the most ridiculous post I've ever read on here.

+1

MockCyclist wrote:Possibly the cyclist filtered onto the roundabout just as the lorry was moving over to the left to take Thorpe Road, in which case it's plausible that the driver didn't know the cyclist was there. I wonder if she believed the lorry was going round for the next exit. Either way visibility is good across all three exits.

That's the exact scenario that I had in mind above; it seems the most plausible from what facts are available, by some margin. Clearly some unreported facts may be salient.

mjr wrote:Why? Do you think wind rushing over thick straps is always silent?

I must confess that I've never perceived a helmet having a significant effect on noise. The main source of noise, I find, is my shoulder: at an airspeed over about 20-25mph or so, even a slight looseness of fabric causes significant noise that can be easily mistaken for a following vehicle (especially as it emanates from the same direction).

What I'm curious about is how fatal injuries resulted from what appears to be something we have all done (i.e. falling off a bike)? Just ill-fortune? Or is there a case for a redesign of some piece of street furniture? Kerb stones?

I was disappointed by the reporting of this on radio 4 last night. Eddie Mair continually tried to bully a woman representing some cycling body into saying that headphones should be banned. Mr Mair also said that the Coroner had specifically blamed the headphones when he had said no such thing (he wasn't picked up on this by either of the interviewees).

Terrible lazy reporting by the BBC. We look to the BBC to provide an unbiased and accurate account of the news, they failed miserably in this case. Most listeners will now be convinced that headphones should be banned and the cyclist effectively committed suicide.

Ruadh495 wrote:What I'm curious about is how fatal injuries resulted from what appears to be something we have all done (i.e. falling off a bike)? Just ill-fortune? Or is there a case for a redesign of some piece of street furniture? Kerb stones?

Did she try to break her fall with her hands / arms?
We have member of our family, now 13 that's had numerous serious injuries because she never instinctively puts her hand and arms out to break a fall.
She knows what to do .... but doesn't ...
Minor scrapes and trips become major injuries ....

Radio 4 has extensive form when it comes to discussing cycling*. Here's just one example.

http://beyondthekerb.org.uk/2015/06/03/them-and-theirs/

* and generally, to be honest: listen to it for long enough and it soon becomes clear it's just populist journalism in a suit

thirdcrank wrote:This is about the coroner's inquest into the death of cyclist Emily Norton who died when she came off her bike fracturing her skull and spinal cord. It's reported that she entered a roundabout without looking to her right. It's reported that a lorry was exiting the roundabout but she fell on its nearside so perhaps the driver was preparing to leave at the next exit.

I'm surprised by the next bit:

(The Coroner) concluded: "I cannot determine if she was on her iPhone listening with earphone at the time, but if she had been, it could have caused a distraction and could have contributed to the cause of the accident."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... sed-death/

or she could have been daydreaming or the lorry driver could have been listening to a radio. The only thing he has right is 'I don't know.' It makes me wonder what caused him to draw any conclusion at all.


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my wobbly bog brush using hovercraft full of eels