Cycling UK Forum

Regarding the Sonder Camino Ti, the Aplpkit website says that a carbon fork with mountings for rack and mudguard is available as an option:

Monocoque Carbon Fork with mudguard and pannier rack mount options available

I'd take that option if it didnt break the bank because I very much like the capacity to fit front panniers on rare occasions.

I use mtb mudguards on mine

It will take a rear rack and panniers. That's enough for me. I've done several two week, and one 4 week tour with only two front ortileb city panniers (mounted on rear rack) and still had space.

If I can tour for a month then I wouldn't need any more space if I went for longer. I've done hot, cold, mountains and deserts so my kit list is pretty sorted.

One caveat is that I use hostels, b&bs, guest houses, motels and cheap hotels. I don't camp, so would obviously need to carry more if I did

Those tours were on my Enigma Etape, which is great, but I can't do tracks and off road hence buying the Camino

BTW, very happy with the standard forks

Given a lotto win .... the Sonder Camino Ti would be top of my buy now list - on looks alone! Even though I have no possible justification for owning a bike with such obvious capabilities and versatility.

As for Ti v steel... I've had AFAIR 6 Ti framed bikes. One was the harshest and stiffest ride I've known and one the most comfortable. It's the angles and dimensions don't you know rather than the material per se. Steel can be "comfortable" ....or not. Choice comes down to cost and aesthetics - though Ti can of course be painted I think that rather defeats its main selling point!

Apologies for not reading all the previous posts, but I have an Ibis Silk Ti which I utterly, utterly love. It's just sublime, bliss, wonderful.

Strava times are similar to the Genesis Latitude it replaced, possibly slower, but good heavens I love it!

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my wobbly using hovercraft full of eels.

pwa wrote:I have had a Spa titanium Audax frame for a few years and it is just like a decent steel frame to ride. The big difference is that it has no paint to worry about, no rust and looks as good as new. The one minor area of dissatisfaction was the cheap stickers, which I removed with ease. So it now has no writing or logo. I notice that at least one Spa titanium bike now has etched lettering and a fancier finsish overall. But my frame is very neat and I'm happy with it. Just like a steel frame but without the rust that put me off steel in the first place.

I have a Spa Ti Audax. I chose Ti because I have limited storage and need one bike that will do everything, including long distance commuting, longer trips, carry luggage and some faster stuff.

It is an extraordinary frame. It is very stable with luggage and there is enough space for panniers without heel - pannier problems and without toe. - front wheel problems. Stripped down it is light, responsive and an absolute joy to ride. I was able to keep up with a pack on (faux) racers on a three day trip to Paris. I also used it for 40 mile daily round trip commute carrying kit and bag - I think you would learn to either love or hate a bike on a trip like that and I loved it.

It is both stable and precise - the handling is lovely. I run thin wheels and full guards - it has all the brackets and clearances. The observation about the stickers is true (does not bother me) but in every other respect it is a very well designed, practical, enjoyable bit of kit and as others observe, it does not chip or rust.

mnichols wrote:I use mtb mudguards on mine

It will take a rear rack and panniers. That's enough for me. I've done several two week, and one 4 week tour with only two front ortileb city panniers (mounted on rear rack) and still had space.

If I can tour for a month then I wouldn't need any more space if I went for longer. I've done hot, cold, mountains and deserts so my kit list is pretty sorted.

One caveat is that I use hostels, b&bs, guest houses, motels and cheap hotels. I don't camp, so would obviously need to carry more if I did

Those tours were on my Enigma Etape, which is great, but I can't do tracks and off road hence buying the Camino

BTW, very happy with the standard forks

How have the wheels been so far? I just saw your short thread soon after you got it with the reply from Brucey.

Bonefishblues wrote:How have the wheels been so far? I just saw your short thread soon after you got it with the reply from Brucey.

I haven't had any problems. They seem light and responsive. I've even kept up with the clubs fast group on them on hilly rides with the nobbly tyres on thanks to the extra traction. If you look on their website they are £170, so I just wonder if they can be any good for that money. They are either a bargain or too good to be true...time will tell.

Indeed! Thanks

Smiles wrote:I have a Spa Ti Audax … It is an extraordinary frame. It is very stable with luggage … Stripped down it is light, responsive and an absolute joy to ride. … It is both stable and precise - the handling is lovely. I run thin wheels and full guards - it has all the brackets and clearances.

Sounds exactly like my steel Spa Audax too!

I take your point about bare titanium not chipping or rusting, of course. My frame is slowly doing both. I have to store my bicycle in a damp cave (basement), which is not ideal for any bicycle. Also, I just cannot be bothered to clean it after every ride. Every month is more like it. How do people have the energy to clean their bicycle immediately after a ride? Sometimes I can hardly clean myself!

Separately: are titanium tubes more resistant to dents than steel ones?

Dents worry me more than paint chips or superficial rust, both of which can be fixed with a repaint if I’m feeling vain. This is one reason I would prefer non-oversized (standard gauge) tubes if I had a custom steel bicycle made for me.

A titanium Spa Audax frame is ‘only’ £750 without forks. I confess I have thought about it sometimes.

Samuel D wrote:Separately: are titanium tubes more resistant to dents than steel ones?
Dents worry me more than paint chips or superficial rust, both of which can be fixed with a repaint if I’m feeling vain. This is one reason I would prefer non-oversized (standard gauge) tubes if I had a custom steel bicycle made for me.

Yes, probably, maybe. Really depends on the tubes. As I understand it for the same strength (Yield) ti only has half the stiffness (Modulus) of steel. So it ought to follow that for the same stiffness ti would have more strength. Sheldon, as always, offers a more comprehensive answer
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

And..."it depends".....
Going from memory here, which is always risky........
"Exotic" steel tubesets can have some thin walled tubes (eg top tubes) but Reynolds 725 is pretty much 0.6mm in the middle and 0.8mm at the ends where its welded in all diameters, (except for the top of the seat tube, which is a special case due to all the welding, and subsequent reaming for a seatpost.) You would be unlucky to dent a 725 frame.
The bigger diameter tubes are for places where you want more stiffness; they are also heavier for the same length of tube, not thinner wall.
Titanium is roughly a third less dense than steel, and about a third less stiff. To get a titanium frame adequately stiff, you use bigger diameter tubes, which is where the "Win" is for titanium.....big diameter tubes are still light and dent resistant.
The "reasonable price" titanium frames are generally made of plain gauge tubing 0.9mm wall thickness. You can get butted titanium tubing (at a price) but there is less advantage compared to steel.; 0.9mm of titanium is thick enough to weld, but thin enough to be light. (Ti seat tubes are often sleeved to take the seatpost; the sleeve is reamed, not the frame tube)
Ummm.....what was the question? I seem to have rambled a bit....

I dont know about denting but you* can put your hand around the bottom tube of my bike and feel it flex in your hand as you squeeze it, rather disconcerting.


*this isnt a general invitation for everybody to molest my bike, more of a way of speaking.

Probably saves the weight of a cheese sandwich.

Samuel D wrote:

Smiles wrote:I have a Spa Ti Audax … It is an extraordinary frame. It is very stable with luggage … Stripped down it is light, responsive and an absolute joy to ride. … It is both stable and precise - the handling is lovely. I run thin wheels and full guards - it has all the brackets and clearances.

Sounds exactly like my steel Spa Audax too!

I take your point about bare titanium not chipping or rusting, of course. My frame is slowly doing both. I have to store my bicycle in a damp cave (basement), which is not ideal for any bicycle. Also, I just cannot be bothered to clean it after every ride. Every month is more like it. How do people have the energy to clean their bicycle immediately after a ride? Sometimes I can hardly clean myself!

Separately: are titanium tubes more resistant to dents than steel ones?

Dents worry me more than paint chips or superficial rust, both of which can be fixed with a repaint if I’m feeling vain. This is one reason I would prefer non-oversized (standard gauge) tubes if I had a custom steel bicycle made for me.

A titanium Spa Audax frame is ‘only’ £750 without forks. I confess I have thought about it sometimes.

I think you are quite right Sam; the only real way to gauge the advantage (and relative difference in the cost) is by side by side comparison of two comparable frames made from the different materials, so who knows if Ti is actually "worth it"? The Audax is such a nice bit of kit I am quite prepared to believe the steel is also a joy.

As a long term ownership prospect the ability of Ti to keep its looks in the face of abuse and neglect should not be underestimated. What I think is outstanding about this particular bike is that it does such a wide range of things so well. Stripped down it is a really swift, agile bike to ride, and maybe here is where the material plays to most advantage. Fully loaded it is well mannered and practical but the advantages of the material probably come through in the durability rather than the ride. I am absolutely prepared to believe that the advantages of Ti may not be worth the extra cost. My own reasoning was this was probably going to be the last bike I buy so spend a bit more to get exactly what I want (light, fast, stable, practical, durable, versatile) even if the incremental value is open to question.