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Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 16 Feb 2017, 11:50pm
by landsurfer
tanglewood wrote:
But the experts in rail safety, the ORR, have said the southern rail trains would be just as safe if driver operated only. They just need to keep the camera lenses clean, apparently.
Maybe you have never travelled on totally automatic trains, DLR or LUL .... but when you do i doubt if you will even notice the lack of a driver.
The guard/ manager has their place but never under estimate what peoples actual roles are ....
The Train Team .. driver, manager and support staff .... the man or woman pushing the trolly down the isle will save you, and your children's lives, in the event of a crash ... thats what they are trained for ....
Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 16 Feb 2017, 11:55pm
by tanglewood
landsurfer wrote:tanglewood wrote:
But the experts in rail safety, the ORR, have said the southern rail trains would be just as safe if driver operated only. They just need to keep the camera lenses clean, apparently.
Maybe you have never travelled on totally automatic trains, DLR or LUL .... but when you do i doubt if you will even notice the lack of a driver.
The guard/ manager has their place but never under estimate what peoples actual roles are ....
The Train Team .. driver, manager and support staff .... the man or woman pushing the trolly down the isle will save your, and your children's lives, in the event of a crash ... thats what they are trained for ....
Didn't Merseyrail deliberately change to driver only trains because they were safer? Something about the guard not being able to stop the train if it moves off when someone is between the train and the platform - whereas the driver can of course.
Have the Southern guards managed to keep their commission on on-board ticket sales? Always wondered why they were happier to sell me one than fine me!
Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 17 Feb 2017, 12:04am
by landsurfer
Very much like LUL trains ... the man sat at the front is not the driver ..... the Computers, the TMS, the OTMR, the WSP .. et.al. are driving the train .... He is a sad reflection of what we have become ... albeit very , very well paid ......
Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 17 Feb 2017, 12:18am
by reohn2
tanglewood wrote:But the experts in rail safety, the ORR, have said the southern rail trains would be just as safe if driver operated only. They just need to keep the camera lenses clean, apparently.
And what happens when it isn't clean?
What happens when disabled people wish to board alight from trains,and the many other things that can happen on trains that a drier has no control over but a guard is able to?
The union members have had a democratic vote and overwhelmingly voted against the proposal,they have the right to withdraw their labour,it's the only tool they're left with to stop what they see an unsafe practice.
There will be strikes unless management change their mind on the issue,end of.
Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 17 Feb 2017, 12:24am
by reohn2
tanglewood wrote:Didn't Merseyrail deliberately change to driver only trains because they were safer? Something about the guard not being able to stop the train if it moves off when someone is between the train and the platform - whereas the driver can of course.
Isn't that a mechanical issue,an ES button or similar for the guard to operate.
Have the Southern guards managed to keep their commission on on-board ticket sales? Always wondered why they were happier to sell me one than fine me!
So would you rather buy a ticket from the guard,or be fined for not having a ticket and or put off the train at the next station?
I know which option I would rather have and I wouldn't care if the guard got commission on the sale.
And I suspect management would rather have someone diligently looking to sell tickets rather than getting into bust ups with passengers by trying to fine them,put them of the train or trying get the rail police involved.
Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 17 Feb 2017, 7:01am
by tanglewood
reohn2 wrote:tanglewood wrote:But the experts in rail safety, the ORR, have said the southern rail trains would be just as safe if driver operated only. They just need to keep the camera lenses clean, apparently.
And what happens when it isn't clean?
What happens when disabled people wish to board alight from trains,and the many other things that can happen on trains that a drier has no control over but a guard is able to?
The union members have had a democratic vote and overwhelmingly voted against the proposal,they have the right to withdraw their labour,it's the only tool they're left with to stop what they see an unsafe practice.
There will be strikes unless management change their mind on the issue,end of.
It would be better to have attended stations instead of a guard per train, have a guard per platform. Then the disabled and ticket buyers get a better service.
Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 17 Feb 2017, 10:13am
by mjr
tanglewood wrote:But the experts in rail safety, the ORR, have said the southern rail trains would be just as safe if driver operated only. They just need to keep the camera lenses clean, apparently.
I think you wrote "the experts in rail safety" but meant "the government office responsible for rail regulation"... and we all know which side this government is on in this dispute. Just look at how the franchise is set up so Southern get paid anyway and the public purse is paying the cost of trying to break the union.
landsurfer refers to Voyager train drivers (mainly Crosscountry IIRC) being responsible for the safety of 200-300 passengers at 125mph. That's the big difference, I think: Southern's trains have a top speed of 110mph so of course the drivers can look after potentially over 1000 passengers too(!)
Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 17 Feb 2017, 11:01am
by reohn2
tanglewood wrote:It would be better to have attended stations instead of a guard per train, have a guard per platform. Then the disabled and ticket buyers get a better service.
Who then deals with the on train problems whilst the driver is concentrating on driving?
Better to have both guards and station staff
Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 17 Feb 2017, 11:03am
by tanglewood
Millions of people get on and off tube trains every day, in much more difficult conditions and using older infrastructure. How come they don't need guards and the drivers have a superb safety record? What do special about Fareham station?
Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 17 Feb 2017, 11:31am
by mjr
tanglewood wrote:Millions of people get on and off tube trains every day, in much more difficult conditions and using older infrastructure. How come they don't need guards and the drivers have a superb safety record? What do special about Fareham station?
Is this a trick question? Aren't all tube stations staffed? In theory anyway - it was a minor scandal for Boris when a leaked document showed some had been left unstaffed at times due to sickness and so on.
Also, most tube stations are much closer together than most national rail stations, with much less scope for things getting onto the tracks.
Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 17 Feb 2017, 11:32am
by tanglewood
mjr wrote:tanglewood wrote:Millions of people get on and off tube trains every day, in much more difficult conditions and using older infrastructure. How come they don't need guards and the drivers have a superb safety record? What do special about Fareham station?
Is this a trick question? Aren't all tube stations staffed? In theory anyway - it was a minor scandal for Boris when a leaked document showed some had been left unstaffed at times due to sickness and so on.
What I mean is, no guards? Don't think they use them - doesn't the driver control the doors?
Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 17 Feb 2017, 12:22pm
by mjr
tanglewood wrote:mjr wrote:tanglewood wrote:Millions of people get on and off tube trains every day, in much more difficult conditions and using older infrastructure. How come they don't need guards and the drivers have a superb safety record? What do special about Fareham station?
Is this a trick question? Aren't all tube stations staffed? In theory anyway - it was a minor scandal for Boris when a leaked document showed some had been left unstaffed at times due to sickness and so on.
What I mean is, no guards? Don't think they use them - doesn't the driver control the doors?
Maybe although there are sometimes guards on DLR (maybe at peak), but doesn't every tube station have screens and much more enclosed platforms than network rail, in addition to staff at every station, who are often on platforms at busy times despatching trains and making announcements?
But door control is only part of the guard's role. Isn't it falling for the government's trick to obsess over that one aspect?
Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 17 Feb 2017, 12:31pm
by tanglewood
SpannerGeek wrote:The issue is quite straightforward: (though largely misunderstood by the public) it's train guards vs either ticket collectors or more likely no on train staff at all.
Guards do 18 months training in all aspects of train safety and health and safety, as well as recusitation techniques and medical emergency. These are the people who get you safely off the train when there's a fire in carriage A, or use the defibrillator when you've had a heart attack. They also look after your daughter when shes the recipient of unwanted attention from yobs.
It's specialist, invaluable training and private train operators don't want to pay for it and would rather do away with it. The unions are rightly incensed by this.
Hence the completely justified strike action.
18 months training! What on earth are they doing for 18 months? Teachers are trained in 9 months!
Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 17 Feb 2017, 1:11pm
by [XAP]Bob
tanglewood wrote:SpannerGeek wrote:The issue is quite straightforward: (though largely misunderstood by the public) it's train guards vs either ticket collectors or more likely no on train staff at all.
Guards do 18 months training in all aspects of train safety and health and safety, as well as recusitation techniques and medical emergency. These are the people who get you safely off the train when there's a fire in carriage A, or use the defibrillator when you've had a heart attack. They also look after your daughter when shes the recipient of unwanted attention from yobs.
It's specialist, invaluable training and private train operators don't want to pay for it and would rather do away with it. The unions are rightly incensed by this.
Hence the completely justified strike action.
18 months training! What on earth are they doing for 18 months? Teachers are trained in 9 months!
That might say more about our attitude to training teachers than it does about train staff
Re: What is your soln to the Southern Rail dispute?
Posted: 17 Feb 2017, 1:45pm
by PH
For anyone like me struggling to understand the issues, this article by Railfuture seems (To me) to be impartial
http://www.railfuture.org.uk/article169 ... aff-dutiesIt looks to me like there's a lack of honesty on all sides, but the reality is that the dispute is very much between the unions and the government rather than the train operators. Either we have a nationalised railway or a privatised one, this hybrid isn't working and never will.