Horse riders hit by chelsea tractor on wrong side of road

[Psamathe]

On a bit of a tangent and not commenting about the specific incident, some aspects of this discussion raise an interesting point (well I think so). Sometimes faced with a sudden crisis some people will "freeze" or respond with "complete inaction" almost watching the crisis as an observer rather than taking prompt avoiding action. I suspect most people have observed this in others. But I wonder if this is a trait in some individuals (who are prone to freeze/inaction in a crisis) or it is it something anybody might suffer from dependent on many factors.

And if it's an individual trait, should people prone to freeze/inaction be allowed to be responsible for motor vehicles? Should the driving test try to establish if the candidate is subject to such (lack of) behaviour or can people train themselves to focus when they know such a test is coming.

Or, if an individual trait, at least once it's identified (e.g. following an accident), should they be allowed to drive at any time in the future.

I do seem to remember from my psychology courses the flight/fight/freeze response ("variant" to the fight/flight response), flight/fight/freeze happening in a situation where the "sufferer" perceives themselves to he helpless. But that does not clarify is some are more prone to it (i.e. feel helpless when they are actually not helpless at all). So maybe further training is appropriate to avoid the individual assessing their situation as being "helpless". So maybe our laws/punishment should, in addition to points/bans/fines/etc. also for some circumstances or reactions require psychological assessment and treatment. Maybe those words are rather loaded but is psychological assessment identifies an individual as being prone to freezing in crisis and there are ways to lower the likelihood that in future then whatever is possible should be done (at the individuals expense). It would seem wrong to allow people prone to freeze in a crisis to continue to drive around.

e.g. Car gets into a skid and driver freezes because they feel helpless and incapable to act to address the situation. Somebody who has taken skid courses knows they can address the same situation so does not have that helpless feeling and instead gets on and acts and addresses the situation. Or somebody who is a better driver or has a more confidant less "passive" outlook (i.e. a personality who will not just sit there and allow something to happen but will act whatever).

A lot of ifs as I don't have the knowledge but it does raise some questions.

Ian

[jatindersangha]

The Daily Mail has an article about this. Apparently the driver is being treated for a stroke.

Not clear whether he had the stroke before/after hitting the horses or whether it's unconnected with this incident.

[meic]

And if it's an individual trait, should people prone to freeze/inaction be allowed to be responsible for motor vehicles? Should the driving test try to establish if the candidate is subject to such (lack of) behaviour or can people train themselves to focus when they know such a test is coming.

I am not sure about my ability in such circumstances. Back when I was a dispatch rider and rode like a nutter, I was pretty good and practiced at such emergency vehicle control.
Now that I drive at the speed limit and avoid risky maneuvers, I havent even needed to press the brake pedal hard for years.

It wasnt really their response to the panic situation that was the problem, it was their stupidity in getting there in the first place. Which was demonstrated by the total lack of skill or handling ability shown by the following van driver who just made a nice controlled stop that could have been executed by any novice learner.

[Bonefishblues]

well if the driver couldnt see the horse god help us

video not working now?

Has it been stated somewhere that the driver claimed not to have seen the horses?

whats that got to do with it?

note the driver in the van that followed after was going at the same speed and he managed to slow down?

Well, what it has to do with it is that you said "well if the driver couldn't see the horse god help us"

I was wondering if that was the claim made, and if so, what purpose the driver had in spearing diagonally across that bend onto the wrong side of the road.

[Psamathe]

And if it's an individual trait, should people prone to freeze/inaction be allowed to be responsible for motor vehicles? Should the driving test try to establish if the candidate is subject to such (lack of) behaviour or can people train themselves to focus when they know such a test is coming.

I am not sure about my ability in such circumstances. Back when I was a dispatch rider and rode like a nutter, I was pretty good and practiced at such emergency vehicle control.
Now that I drive at the speed limit and avoid risky maneuvers, I havent even needed to press the brake pedal hard for years.

It wasnt really their response to the panic situation that was the problem, it was their stupidity in getting there in the first place. Which was demonstrated by the total lack of skill or handling ability shown by the following van driver who just made a nice controlled stop that could have been executed by any novice learner.

I felt that there were the two aspects: as you say, they should never have got into the situation but also, but once in the situation there are often avoiding or minimising actions. e.g. you are driving and you are going to hit a wall whatever you do - but brake hard and you might hit the wall at 10mph rather than do nothing and hit the wall at 50mph. A lot must depend on the point that one considers things switched from "getting into" to being "got into" the situation.

Ian

[thirdcrank]

To try to move this on a bit, I've been reminded of this response to a complaint of bad driving posted on another thread (with my emphasis):-

Dear Mr xxxxxxxx

In relation to the concept of prosecution of minor traffic offences from video submissions or public witnesses, guidance has been sought Nationally from the Crown Prosecution Service and Policing leads.
It is the opinion of such experts that a prosecution for offences based solely upon this level of evidence is unlikely.
There are concerns from National Police Chiefs Council that this approach effectively removes the level of discretion and professional judgement used by officers when dealing with incidents or offences of this type, the value of which cannot be underplayed.

On this basis we will not engage in any prosecutions of such matters.

Yours sincerely

Cameras, Tickets & Collisions Dept.
Joint Protective Services

Bedfordshire Police, Cambridgeshire & Hertfordshire Constabularies.

viewtopic.php?p=1098159#p1098159

Does this mean it's going nowhere or do different standards apply to geegees?

[meic]

Harking back to my riding like a nutter days. If he had lost control (the ability to turn) due to lack of grip while braking, something that motorcyclists know all about. He missed a golden opportunity to just let off the brakes and carry on straight into the side road he was headed towards.

[meic]

or do different standards apply to geegees?

Different standards apply to cases that are reported prominently by the mainstream media.

[Psamathe]

Harking back to my riding like a nutter days. If he had lost control (the ability to turn) due to lack of grip while braking, something that motorcyclists know all about. He missed a golden opportunity to just let off the brakes and carry on straight into the side road he was headed towards.

That is along the lines of the "freezing" response I was thinking about. There appeared from the video to have been no action (or even attempt) to avoid the collision. As you say, good "escape route" - might still have caused an accident as swerving across close in front of a horse at speed is not the best thing but chances are nothing like as nasty as smashing straight into them! But I can't even notice any hard braking nor swerving into a tighter turn to at least try and get back on the correct side of the road.

(But this must be conjecture on my part and from the video alone and with no expertise).

Ian

[meic]

That does give grounds to speculate along the lines that the driver was not paying full attention to their driving for some reason, playing with a phone, changing a CD, mechanical glitch or even having a stroke.

[Bonefishblues]

ABS-aided braking can be deceptive though - I recall when F1 had similar systems, and it appeared that drivers were simply driving into each other, since there wasn't the cloud of smoke accompanied by locked wheels one ordinarily associates (at least subconsciously) with an attempt at accident avoidance.

[reohn2]

The Daily Mail has an article about this. Apparently the driver is being treated for a stroke.

Not clear whether he had the stroke before/after hitting the horses or whether it's unconnected with this incident.

That could explain a lot.
Though doesn't explain him being able to drive after the collision.

[reohn2]

or do different standards apply to geegees?

Different standards apply to cases that are reported prominently by the mainstream media.

Unless the minister for transport is involved......

[thirdcrank]

I missed the reference to the Daily Mail article. No excuses, paying insufficient attention. I've tried to make amends by finding the article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... r-Ely.html

(Whatever anybody thinks about Mr Dacre's editorial line, the DM often has the most background information about local stories.)

A family member of the driver said he was now in hospital having suffered a suspected stroke.

[rualexander]

But it also says that police spoke to the driver at the scene, surely if he was having a stroke they wouldn't have been interviewing him.