Cycling UK Forum

Tangled Metal wrote:Geologically the continent includes Russia and post Brexit UK. Politically i have no idea of the boundaries of Europe. I guess it can be different to the geological continent.

Hardly scientific but a children's card game based on flags puts Russia as Europe/Asia category. Whereas UK is just Europe. It was a few years old though so soon to be out of date.

Russia includes Siberia, which is Asian, of course. Europe is more than the EU, though we do use the word to mean the EU sometimes. Loose language, I suppose.

pwa wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:Geologically the continent includes Russia and post Brexit UK. Politically i have no idea of the boundaries of Europe. I guess it can be different to the geological continent.

Hardly scientific but a children's card game based on flags puts Russia as Europe/Asia category. Whereas UK is just Europe. It was a few years old though so soon to be out of date.

Russia includes Siberia, which is Asian, of course. Europe is more than the EU, though we do use the word to mean the EU sometimes. Loose language, I suppose.

Not really loose language more like contextual language. The meaning of quite a few words depends on the context in which they're used. Pedants often fail to understand this.

pete75 wrote:

pwa wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:Geologically the continent includes Russia and post Brexit UK. Politically i have no idea of the boundaries of Europe. I guess it can be different to the geological continent.

Hardly scientific but a children's card game based on flags puts Russia as Europe/Asia category. Whereas UK is just Europe. It was a few years old though so soon to be out of date.

Russia includes Siberia, which is Asian, of course. Europe is more than the EU, though we do use the word to mean the EU sometimes. Loose language, I suppose.

Not really loose language more like contextual language. The meaning of quite a few words depends on the context in which they're used. Pedants often fail to understand this.

I suppose it is very similar to the way we say "America" when we mean the USA, even though Canada is part of the North American continent, as is Mexico. None of it matters so long as nobody is confused about what is meant. To return to the original point, if you feel yourself to be European now, you can continue feeling that way as long as you like. After March 29th there will still be a Europe to which we belong, a Europe that includes the EU along with non-EU nations such as Switzerland.

Tangled Metal wrote:Geologically the continent includes Russia and post Brexit UK. Politically i have no idea of the boundaries of Europe. I guess it can be different to the geological continent.

Eurovision Song Contest?

Australia?
Turkey?

blackbike wrote:

PDQ Mobile wrote:[

Sad to feel that in two years I will no longer be officially a European...

I'll be as European as I was prior to 1973, and as I was during our membership of the EU.

Do you regard Norwegians, Russians and the Swiss as European? If not, what are they?

And have Poles only been European since 2004?

I meant it in the sense of belonging to the wider political entity.
I should of thought that very obvious.
Certainly the countries you cite are fully Europe (although farther East into the Russian Federation is not).
With the exception of Russia they are also (in one form or another) members of the EU etc.
It is losing that belonging that makes me sad.
My birthright is a given.

Indeed - the English language is beautiful and fluid.

Not only do words have multiple meanings, but often those meanings can be completely contradictory.

pete75 wrote:
The meaning of quite a few words depends on the context in which they're used. Pedants often fail to understand this.

PDQ Mobile tells us he'll no longer be 'officially European' after Brexit, yet he'll be as European as he ever was and as European as any Leave voter or Norwegian.

A few people dreaming up some pseudo-official meaning of a word for themselves does not make the rest of us pedants for using it in its correct sense.

It's bad enough with teenagers dreaming up new meanings for words every five minutes without pro-EU people doing it too.

PDQ Mobile tells us he'll no longer be 'officially European' after Brexit, yet he'll be as European as he ever

No he will not be and nor will the rest of us.
We will no longer have European passports and the right to travel, live and work throughout the EU, nor to vote in the European elections.
That will be restricted along with our citizenship to the confines of the UK.

We will still be able to travel in the EU. We will still be able to feel part of European culture, the way we always have. Working in the EU, if you want to do that, will be a matter for permits, certainly. And we won't need to vote in European elections. But as a plain statement of fact we will still be European. We could not change that even if we wanted to.

But we will not be officially European, that has a different meaning.
Just as the Irish, despite being in the British Isles, are not officially British.

meic wrote:But we will not be officially European, that has a different meaning.
Just as the Irish, despite being in the British Isles, are not officially British.

European still, but not EU. I could probably be EU if I wanted, having an Irish father, but I don't want it. European includes British. European History, as I was taught it at school, included the UK. Our culture has developed in a European context. We are and will remain Europeans.

I may well lose freedom of movement and the right to work and live. that's how it looks.
Maybe quite a lot more. Healthcare for example.


In the context of the discussion, a person must be a bit limited (or deliberately trying to fudge the issue maybe?) to interpret my "officially European" in any other way.
That's how it seems to me anyway.


Birthright is a given.

It is the sense of not belonging to a wider and very culturally rich union that I most regret.
Tolerant, secular, with a willingness to discuss and compromise.
We shall see how daft David Davies manages in the face of such intelligence.

meic wrote:But we will not be officially European, that has a different meaning.

No it doesn't.

There's no such thing as an official European, or an unofficial one either.

You are either European or you're not and no amount of official paperwork or other bureaucracy has any bearing on the matter.

Sometimes I think the EU appeals to a certain type of person who admires bureaucracy, authority and officialdom for their own sakes, often because they are in minor positions of authority themselves and make a living from bureaucracy and officialdom.

I imagine them wielding a clipboard ticking off little checklists, and being happiest when they can tell someone off for failing to adhere to some rule or regulation.

PDQ Mobile wrote:I may well lose freedom of movement and the right to work and live. that's how it looks.
Maybe quite a lot more. Healthcare for example.


In the context of the discussion, a person must be a bit limited (or deliberately trying to fudge the issue maybe?) to interpret my "officially European" in any other way.
That's how it seems to me anyway.


Birthright is a given.

It is the sense of not belonging to a wider and very culturally rich union that I most regret.
Tolerant, secular, with a willingness to discuss and compromise.
We shall see how daft David Davies manages in the face of such intelligence.

By "officially European" you mean a citizen of the EU, so yes, you will lose that. But cultural connections are not so easily broken and the UK will still have cultural connections with the rest of Europe. We will be Europeans detached from the EU. I know it is playing with words but you will not cut all ties with the rest of Europe. And we can do all the virtues you list. Tolerance is better here than in France already. Mostly we are secular. Compromise is a British trait. You can fight for the virtues you value within a UK context.

You are either European or you're not and no amount of official paperwork or other bureaucracy has any bearing on the matter.

That is true though irrelevant shades of grey also exist.

However being officially European is entirely dependent on official paperwork and bureaucracy.
Just as being officially organic is about official paperwork and bureaucracy. Food can easily be organic but not certified organic and also certified organic while not actually being organic.