The Communist Party and political image

[landsurfer]

The "Elephant in the Room" is simple ... it does not matter how much money you throw at the NHS it will always want more ..... It's like African Famine, no amount of money will make it go away .....
The hole is un-fillable ....

[bovlomov]

You could approach this subject with pure principle - for private provision or for public provision. Either could be quite respectable positions to take, but there's no point arguing about the pros and cons, as the opinion is formed at a deeper level.

Or you could approach the subject by asking what works. That's a lot more complicated. A lot of what goes wrong with private provision is to do with the attendant relaxation of standards (presumably to encourage bidders). In those cases it's not that privatisation had to fail, but that the regulatory environment made it likely.

Local authority housing before the mid 80s was usually well built, with plenty of storage space. Private 'affordable housing' built more recently has generally been disgracefully shoddy, with almost no storage space. It didn't have to be like that, but the regulatory environment changed. The same has happened with PFI schools and hospitals - which we still haven't heard the half of.

You don't have to be anti-privatisation to think that railway privatisation was handled badly, or that some of MOD outsourcing was disastrous. Trouble is, the arguments are often tribal. That means that too many antis, having lost the battle, fail to take enough interest in the detail of what's happening; and too many pros cheer privatisation even when it is riddled with incompetence, inefficiency and corruption.

Regarding private healthcare - I'd be happier if the ministers responsible for promoting private provision weren't able to walk straight into highly paid jobs in the sectors that benefited.

[reohn2]

But the NHS is riddled with profit making and taking staff. £200k / year consultants ... 3 days a week for the NHS 3 days a week for the private sector. Latest techniques learned in the NHS and applied to the private sector ....
I also have had superb treatment within the NHS ... and the private sector .....

I think you hit the nail on the head,the NHS is top with 'management' adding to the the cost.
FWIW Mrs R2 and I have had first class treatment in the NHS,and never been offer a private hospital appointment or needed to,perhaps have a good trust,two in fact one in Salford and one in Wigan.

[reohn2]

Labour Party MP's rage about how wonderful our schools are ... then send their children to private schools ....
I do wonder if Ms. Abbot has a private health care policy .........

Have you got any proof of their raging how wonderful our schools are?
Perhaps they 'rage' about how good the staff manage whilst funds cut under the Tories whilst promising grammar schools for those well off enough to afford private tutors to get their children through the exam,paid for by the 5% tax cuts given to higher earners.....

As for Diane Abbot's children's education,I find a disgrace TBH,but there again if state schools across the board were properly funded there'd be no need for private schools as all children would get higher level of education.As is we have a two or even three tier system selective education system based on afford ability to pay,or passing one exam at one point in a child's school life and the rest who attend underfunded schools that under the Tories has like the NHS had their funding squeezed even more.

[reohn2]

Labour Party MP's rage about how wonderful our schools are ... then send their children to private schools ....
I do wonder if Ms. Abbot has a private health care policy .........

Don't MPs have private medical as part of their contract? It's kind of offered to them but they could always turn it down if their ideology opposes it just like they do with private education!

Quite right and maybe some do,but it's just more proof of the class system in operation(sorry) within the UK's social system,ie;a very unlevel playing field.

[reohn2]

The "Elephant in the Room" is simple ... it does not matter how much money you throw at the NHS it will always want more ..... It's like African Famine, no amount of money will make it go away .....
The hole is un-fillable ....

But it's always about throwing money at the problem,but more about getting value for the money available.African famine is a world wide disgrace,brought about by war and greed,where once again to powerless suffer,but that's for another thread.

I'll repeat the mantra,which you agreed with up thread if I'm not mistaken.
That is if it's possible to do any job and make moneTory(sorry couldn't resist) profit from it,it follows that the same job provided as a service without the need to make profit must be cheaper or better or both,that isn't rocket science.
The problem with the private sector working within the NHS is that private companies don't want the messy work as I posted up thread,they don't get involved with mental health for example,are bailing out of old age healthcare homes like they were on fire!
Two examples there are others such as cancer treatment or cancer research,etc.
There's no profit in it for them,simple as.

[reohn2]

You could approach this subject with pure principle - for private provision or for public provision. Either could be quite respectable positions to take, but there's no point arguing about the pros and cons, as the opinion is formed at a deeper level.

Or you could approach the subject by asking what works. That's a lot more complicated. A lot of what goes wrong with private provision is to do with the attendant relaxation of standards (presumably to encourage bidders). In those cases it's not that privatisation had to fail, but that the regulatory environment made it likely.

Local authority housing before the mid 80s was usually well built, with plenty of storage space. Private 'affordable housing' built more recently has generally been disgracefully shoddy, with almost no storage space. It didn't have to be like that, but the regulatory environment changed. The same has happened with PFI schools and hospitals - which we still haven't heard the half of.

You don't have to be anti-privatisation to think that railway privatisation was handled badly, or that some of MOD outsourcing was disastrous. Trouble is, the arguments are often tribal. That means that too many antis, having lost the battle, fail to take enough interest in the detail of what's happening; and too many pros cheer privatisation even when it is riddled with incompetence, inefficiency and corruption.

Regarding private healthcare - I'd be happier if the ministers responsible for promoting private provision weren't able to walk straight into highly paid jobs in the sectors that benefited.

Nail,head,on!

[reohn2]

BTW this has all become severe thread drift.

[Tangled Metal]

Didn't Blair send his kids right across London to a very high performing state funded school even though they lived well outside of its catchment area. At least he could talk the talk about state schools even though the rules were thrown out regarding admission of his kids.

I bet a lot of senior MPs from across the divide have good private health insurance to avoid NHS problems if treatment is needed. Some very good private hospitals in London to go to.

I am in pain! I have to agree with bovmolov in his last post. I think politically we're far apart but regarding public vs private health services it seems we're close in some aspects. The polarity of those with strong views I feel is evident in some posts upthread. No matter what posters believe about my views on private healthcare provision through the NHS I only care about the end result for those I know. I don't care what is the source of my own or my family's treatment only that it's free at the point of need and it's good treatment. As an afterthought I'd hope that treatment was sourced in the most efficient way possible. By that I don't mean an open marketplace but one where the NHS devices what it needs and who is best placed to provide those needs. Money! It comes down to money in the end. One pot to make the most out of.

[pwa]

When my mother had an ankle fracture last year (she's in her 80s) we took her for her appointments to our nearest hospital in Bridgend. Every appointment involved a long queue and took hours. But while you sat there, bored rigid, you could see the staff working hard to do what they could. And when we got to the front of the queue the treatment was excellent. The staff were caring, skilled and diligent. Nothing was too much trouble. Our NHS has deficiencies, but it also has great virtues. And looking at it rationally, it treats us for illnesses that were once untreatable. It cures us of things that used to be a death sentence. It does much more than it did in the past. That is progress. There is a lot to improve, but let's not forget what is good about the NHS. It is flawed but it is still one of the greatest things about this country.

[reohn2]

Didn't Blair send his kids right across London to a very high performing state funded school even though they lived well outside of its catchment area. At least he could talk the talk about state schools even though the rules were thrown out regarding admission of his kids.

I bet a lot of senior MPs from across the divide have good private health insurance to avoid NHS problems if treatment is needed. Some very good private hospitals in London to go to.

TBH nothing surprises me about Blair or many MP's

I am in pain! I have to agree with bovmolov in his last post. I think politically we're far apart but regarding public vs private health services it seems we're close in some aspects. The polarity of those with strong views I feel is evident in some posts upthread. No matter what posters believe about my views on private healthcare provision through the NHS I only care about the end result for those I know. I don't care what is the source of my own or my family's treatment only that it's free at the point of need and it's good treatment. As an afterthought I'd hope that treatment was sourced in the most efficient way possible. By that I don't mean an open marketplace but one where the NHS devices what it needs and who is best placed to provide those needs. Money! It comes down to money in the end. One pot to make the most out of.

I think we're all after the same holy grail,good healthcare for all,the problem is when we go down the private sector road, once we're too far down it there'll be no return as less and less NHS services there'll be.
Then we'll have a USA style system where you'll need private health insurance and as you get older or you suffer from long term illness,it'll become more and more expensive,to the point where it'll not be affordable unless you have the mular to pay.
That situation would be a reversal of the NHS as per pre 1948.
That is my fear and IMHO the Tories are taking the NHS in that direction.

[bovlomov]

I am in pain!

A thousand apologies! (Have an aspirin)

[reohn2]

When my mother had an ankle fracture last year (she's in her 80s) we took her for her appointments to our nearest hospital in Bridgend. Every appointment involved a long queue and took hours. But while you sat there, bored rigid, you could see the staff working hard to do what they could. And when we got to the front of the queue the treatment was excellent. The staff were caring, skilled and diligent. Nothing was too much trouble. Our NHS has deficiencies, but it also has great virtues. And looking at it rationally, it treats us for illnesses that were once untreatable. It cures us of things that used to be a death sentence. It does much more than it did in the past. That is progress. There is a lot to improve, but let's not forget what is good about the NHS. It is flawed but it is still one of the greatest things about this country.

Talk to ambulance crews if you're unfortunate enough to be in one(you won't get chance to talk to nurses and doctors as they're running about like the proverbial blue rear ended flies),they'll tell you how crazy it's all become.
They'll tell you how many A&E's have been closed,and how because of that they're waiting to unload patients at the A&E's still open as a result and how if they don't unload within half an hour of booking in the A&E's get charged £50 for ever half hour they unable to unload.
They'll tell you how what used to be termed as 'legal highs' such as Spice are causing mayhem in A&E's and in the mental health departments,they'll tell you about people dialling 999 for trivial matters,and a host of other issues they face daily and how they highly trained profession is hemorrhaging(sorry again) staff at alarming rates or stafff are going of sick with stress,etc,etc.......

[pwa]

When my mother had an ankle fracture last year (she's in her 80s) we took her for her appointments to our nearest hospital in Bridgend. Every appointment involved a long queue and took hours. But while you sat there, bored rigid, you could see the staff working hard to do what they could. And when we got to the front of the queue the treatment was excellent. The staff were caring, skilled and diligent. Nothing was too much trouble. Our NHS has deficiencies, but it also has great virtues. And looking at it rationally, it treats us for illnesses that were once untreatable. It cures us of things that used to be a death sentence. It does much more than it did in the past. That is progress. There is a lot to improve, but let's not forget what is good about the NHS. It is flawed but it is still one of the greatest things about this country.

Talk to ambulance crews if you're unfortunate enough to be in one(you won't get chance to talk to nurses and doctors as they're running about like the proverbial blue rear ended flies),they'll tell you how crazy it's all become.
They'll tell you how many A&E's have been closed,and how because of that they're waiting to unload patients at the A&E's still open as a result and how if they don't unload within half an hour of booking in the A&E's get charged £50 for ever half hour they unable to unload.
They'll tell you how what used to be termed as 'legal highs' such as Spice are causing mayhem in A&E's and in the mental health departments,they'll tell you about people dialling 999 for trivial matters,and a host of other issues they face daily and how they highly trained profession is hemorrhaging(sorry again) staff at alarming rates or stafff are going of sick with stress,etc,etc.......

I've heard a lot of stuff like that, and I'm sure it is true. Big issues. But at the same time I think we should remember that the NHS is a wonderful asset that does wonderful things, and which deals with illnesses that were once untreatable. It does much more than it used to. And yes, of course, it is seriously misfiring and needs a rejig to work in a more joined up way. I just think we should view the NHS as a wonderful thing that deserves our best efforts to rectify its problems, rather than a cause of national shame. My sister-in-law in Germany pays something like £400 per month for her family's health insurance and then boasts how much better health care is in Germany. Well what would you expect if you throw that much money at it!

[reohn2]

I've heard a lot of stuff like that, and I'm sure it is true. Big issues. But at the same time I think we should remember that the NHS is a wonderful asset that does wonderful things, and which deals with illnesses that were once untreatable. It does much more than it used to. And yes, of course, it is seriously misfiring and needs a rejig to work in a more joined up way. I just think we should view the NHS as a wonderful thing that deserves our best efforts to rectify its problems, rather than a cause of national shame. My sister-in-law in Germany pays something like £400 per month for her family's health insurance and then boasts how much better health care is in Germany. Well what would you expect if you throw that much money at it!

If you wish the NHS to remain a wonderful thing and to carry on doing much more than it used to.
Don't vote Tory,as they're privatising the NHS by stealth,at the cost of which your Sis in L has found out in the German health system.

Edited for typos