The Communist Party and political image

[landsurfer]

No I'm not blind,and if you look up thread you'll see that.
The fact is we are where we are and the Tories are seeking to make matters worse not better.

But surely some agree with them ... lots of "some" .. otherwise they would not be the government ...
Unless you honestly believe they are a dictatorship that stole the last election !!!!

[reohn2]

No I'm not blind,and if you look up thread you'll see that.
The fact is we are where we are and the Tories are seeking to make matters worse not better.

But surely some agree with them ... lots of "some" .. otherwise they would not be the government ...
Unless you honestly believe they are a dictatorship that stole the last election !!!!

I don't believe we live in a dictatorship,but we certainly don't live in a 'truthship'.
Everything the Tories have done since coming to power has put this country in a worse state than it was before their friends the bankers b@llsed up the whole economy.
Their 'living within our means' austerity policy is a failure,and the country is in more debt than ever,yet they give tax cuts to the rich,and don't chase down the tax avoiders/evaders,and the Sir Philip Green's of this world carry on as before.
Yet they've tried continually to punish those at the bottom of the pile,the poor,the old and infirm,the disabled with various systems to make their lives even more of a misery.
The rich get richer and the gap continually increases between them and poor.
Whilst their puppeteers who own the media spread lies about anyone who opposes them and paint a rosy picture that puts them is gold leaf.
Sickening......
That's what I see before my eyes.

[Tangled Metal]

Privatisation? I needed to see an EN&T consultant in the last years of Blair's regime. My GP showed me a list of potential locations to see a consultant on her screen together with the current waiting times. Three NHS hospitals and a private hospital. The furthest away hospital was many, many weeks. The next furthest was a week less and the closest was a week less than that. The private hospital had a third of the waiting time.

Considering I wanted the reassurance of knowing what the issue was with my hearing I wanted the shorter wait but opposed the privatisation of the NHS. The GP explained what the deal with the private hospital was. Basically the local trust paid a certain amount per patient up to a certain number each year. Any patient they see above that number didn't cost the NHS trust any more. She also told me that 9 months or so into the year they had passed this number of patients. My private consult cost the trust nothing! Now that's a good deal surely?

Overall the private hospital was saving the NHS trust. Added to that I got offered a cup of coffee on arrival by the hospital receptionist. A real Americano coffee not a plastic cup from a dispenser. Then before it had cooled enough to drink I was in with the consultant (less than 5 minutes wait). I got seen and referred to a hearing test technician without any wait. The consultant walked into the test room. That got done and I was settling down for a long wait while the technician did the report. Only took 5 minutes before I was back in with the consultant who was reviewing the report on screen.

Basically an amazing treatment/service. I know I would have been at a state hospital for well over twice as long. With that waiting list time as well... Well put it bluntly the private hospital could offer the service cheaper, better and with less waiting than the NHS. Downside?

So I have a few questions. If private services can do these treatments in every way better than NHS then what is the NHS doing so wrong? If this was in place towards the end of Blair's government why is only Tory governments blamed for privatizing the NHS? Oh yes Blair was Tory lite right?! But didn't Blair and later Brown pump money into the NHS during their long reign as the government in power? Isn't that what you accuse Tories of not doing and what the NHS needs? If Labour pumped money in but things were still better with private outsourcing then what else could be wrong with the NHS?

NHS has bigger problems than the Tories.

Well that didn't last long, not that many posts after saying I'd stay away from these right wing bashing threads I'm back!

[bovlomov]

Unless you honestly believe they are a dictatorship that stole the last election !!!!

Isn't that the subject of an ongoing police investigation?

[landsurfer]

Unless you honestly believe they are a dictatorship that stole the last election !!!!

Isn't that the subject of an ongoing police investigation?

No its not ......

[Tangled Metal]

Police investigation is into election.fraud relating to election spending exceeding the fixed limits for each constituency spending. They got the votes just spent too much getting them. Hardly stole the election. Besides I bet you can't trust Labour books neither and don't mention Labour had a bit of an issue with proxy or postal votes the election before last in some constituencies IIRC.

It would be.net interesting to know the majority in those constituencies under investigation. Would the alleged fraud be significant? Has it really resulted in a stolen election?

AFAIK it's only a few constituencies and certainly not the 12 seats that formed the Tory majority. Even if they did have 12 results declared null and void they'd still have more MPs than their closest rival.

[bovlomov]

Police investigation is into election.fraud relating to election spending exceeding the fixed limits for each constituency spending. They got the votes just spent too much getting them. Hardly stole the election. Besides I bet you can't trust Labour books neither and don't mention Labour had a bit of an issue with proxy or postal votes the election before last in some constituencies IIRC.

For those of us who are not Labour supporters or Labour voters, it is absolutely no consolation to be told that the Conservatives effectively bought votes, but, anyway, Labour (and other parties) were doing it too.

Despite being an anarchist (albeit a pragmatic one), I have more respect for law and due process than many of our Parliamentarians.

[Tangled Metal]

Me too. Which is why I don't believe our system of governance is sufficiently fit for purpose. I don't know what system would be due to our species' characteristics. By that I take the view that homo sapiens is at its heart a selfish animal beyond its immediate circle of family/friends.

It's why I believe all political and ideological groupings will ultimately play the system to their own ends (more fashionable phrase might be game the system). Is there any system that could prevent that?

[reohn2]

TM
RE private treatment had being free to the NHS.
So you believe in a free lunch?
I don't and even less so with private health care.

I believe if private system can do what the NHS is doing only cheaper it's either because they're cherry picking the customers/patients,and doesn't want complecated cases or risky ventures such as older patients,a proven case I might add,or the NHS is badly managed.

Story alert:-
I was in hospital some 15 months ago following a slight heart attack,four days on the cardiac unit,treated like a king BTW.
I remarked to one of the nurses that I hadn't seen her before,she told me she didn't work one that ward usually but she was 'banking',I inquired what that meant,she told me how the 'banking' system worked in that if she wanted overtime(it was near Christmas) she had to apply through a private agency whereupon she was given any overtime that was available,she got almost double her usual salary,and the agency took their cut on top of that.
I remarked how crazily inefficient that was and it could be done through the trust at Sister/Matron level saving a fortune,I was told everyone knew that.
One private system that stinks and I'm sure there's many others within the NHS and the staff know it,so why does it persist?
Here's another:- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 29671.html

[Tangled Metal]

It wasn't a few lunch but a service contracted out. Three private hospital negotiated a contract that ended up working out better for the NHS. The team that negotiated the contract for the NHS trust must have either got lucky or just plain been good at their job. It's an example of what could be achieved.

Cherry picking? It was likely to be the more routine cases going to them, well mine was, but so what?! If it is cost effective and takes some of the burden off the NHS provided services is there any real issue with that? If private sector carries out treatments or services cheaper than it costs the NHS trust is that wrong? Mind you private companies being used in the NHS should only be used where cost effective. There's limited funding for the NHS so any savings that are actually achieved, as in the case of my local trust, is a good idea IMHO.

Of course such pragmatism doesn't work with ideology. NHS is Labour's sacred cow afterall.

[Vorpal]

It's why I believe all political and ideological groupings will ultimately play the system to their own ends (more fashionable phrase might be game the system). Is there any system that could prevent that?

Humans are political animals. There will always be people who want to use the system to their own ends. But some systems are better than others at maintaining a balance and representing the majority of voters.

There are several ranking systems
http://www.eiu.com/topic/democracy-index is from The Economist Intelligence Unit
http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm also shows the OECD scores, and includes rankings for corruption, freedom of the press, and democracy. You can take a look at how the ones that are ranked highest (or have the least corruption?) work.

Some scholars have also correlated the system of democracy to quality of life and other aspects or governance, such as reducing inequality, taking care of the environment, etc.

Arend Lijphart, a world reknown political scientist found that countries which use proportional representation have better environmental management and healthier economies, also reduced inequality and conflict. Here's the summary of his 1999 book. There's a newer one (2012), but I didnæt find a summary.

Other scholars have associated electoral systems with left-right bias, with PR being left biased and majoritarian systems being right biased. http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~iver ... ce2005.pdf

I'm not sure whether it is bias in the system, or a reflection of what voters want, but the countries that are highest (top 9) on the human development index all have PR or mixed electoral systems. All but 3 (The US, UK, and Canada) of the top 20 have some form of PR, though most have mixed systems.

[Tangled Metal]

Bank system has been in the NHS for a very long period. It was rife under Labour way back too. I've got friends working in the NHS too. One, a registered nurse who qualified the old way through on the job training, made a very good wage by doing bank work and lists too. One system of NHS pay structure, used in the lists, resulted in double pay plus paid time in lieu. The time in lieu was then used in either extra lists or bank work. Basically she was costing the NHS trust the same or even more working overtime on those lists. Her pay was almost in the £40k mark because of lists. When they got stopped because they cost too much, weren't effective at achieving Blair's government's NHS targets and other reasons there was a lot of bank nursing that grew. From what I gathered the nurses missed the extra pay and perks so engineered greater need for bank nursing.

I could have got a biased interpretation since my nurse friends telling me these stories was completely disillusioned with the NHS borne out of 15+ years of working in the NHS. She left for a mix of agency nursing around the country (best working conditions were in the private hospitals) and work outside of healthcare. My cousin left neo-natal sister job to become a nanny for someone (daytime only job) because the NHS was not a good place to work.

All problems no government has been able to solve. The system is virtually broken. I don't privatization is the answer but there's been no other ideas except throw money at it. Correct me if I'm wrong but there was a figure put on what the NHS needs to become the ideal service and taxes for all would need to exceed 50% I think by some margin.

[Vorpal]

Cherry picking? It was likely to be the more routine cases going to them, well mine was, but so what?! If it is cost effective and takes some of the burden off the NHS provided services is there any real issue with that? If private sector carries out treatments or services cheaper than it costs the NHS trust is that wrong? Mind you private companies being used in the NHS should only be used where cost effective. There's limited funding for the NHS so any savings that are actually achieved, as in the case of my local trust, is a good idea IMHO.

Of course such pragmatism doesn't work with ideology. NHS is Labour's sacred cow afterall.

The problem is that leaves the NHS with the cases that the hardest or worst. And we use the same measures for the private service that we do for the NHS.

It would be a little like taking two groups (lets say students just for a simple comparison). Now, we let Teacher A pick the students he wants, and give them both some targets for test scores. Then, two months later, we administer the tests. When Teacher A achieves the test targets with flying colours and Teacher B fails them miserably, we can say definitively that Teacher A is cost effective and achieves good results, and Teacher B is a bad teacher and needs to be reformed or fired.

[reohn2]

It wasn't a few lunch but a service contracted out. Three private hospital negotiated a contract that ended up working out better for the NHS.

You keep believing that

The team that negotiated the contract for the NHS trust must have either got lucky or just plain been good at their job. It's an example of what could be achieved.

So you do really believe in a free lunch.
I was in business 30 years,one thing's for sure if I did work for nowt I didn't eat,it's that simple.

Cherry picking? It was likely to be the more routine cases going to them, well mine was, but so what?! If it is cost effective and takes some of the burden off the NHS provided services is there any real issue with that? If private sector carries out treatments or services cheaper than it costs the NHS trust is that wrong? Mind you private companies being used in the NHS should only be used where cost effective. There's limited funding for the NHS so any savings that are actually achieved, as in the case of my local trust, is a good idea IMHO.

You really don't get it.
Ever heard of the term speculate to accumulate?
Or the term 'backhanders' ?

Of course such pragmatism doesn't work with ideology. NHS is Labour's sacred cow afterall.

It's this simple,if a company can make profit for work,any type of work,an organisation run properly without the need to make profit, can be run cheaper with less outlay.
The key word is organisation.

[landsurfer]

It wasn't a few lunch but a service contracted out. Three private hospital negotiated a contract that ended up working out better for the NHS.

You keep believing that

The team that negotiated the contract for the NHS trust must have either got lucky or just plain been good at their job. It's an example of what could be achieved.

So you do really believe in a free lunch.
I was in business 30 years,one thing's for sure if I did work for nowt I didn't eat,it's that simple.

Cherry picking? It was likely to be the more routine cases going to them, well mine was, but so what?! If it is cost effective and takes some of the burden off the NHS provided services is there any real issue with that? If private sector carries out treatments or services cheaper than it costs the NHS trust is that wrong? Mind you private companies being used in the NHS should only be used where cost effective. There's limited funding for the NHS so any savings that are actually achieved, as in the case of my local trust, is a good idea IMHO.[/qupte]
You really don't get it.
Ever heard of the term speculate to accumulate?
Or the term 'backhanders' ?

Of course such pragmatism doesn't work with ideology. NHS is Labour's sacred cow afterall.

It's this simple,if a company can make profit for work,any type of work,an organisation run properly without the need to make profit, can be run cheaper with less outlay.
The key word is organisation.

+1 and +1 again
Well said ....
Reality check .....