661-Pete wrote: Two years ago we visited Gettysburg, where the entire battlefield is in effect one big open-air museum too - and the statues of Lee and other confeds. didn't seem out of place there. We even took photos of ourselves standing in front of Lee! Was that poor taste? Others do the same.
It's entirely appropriate in that context. It's not appropriate in front of a court house. Or a school. Or the local government offices.
Should all statues be in museums or just the ones you object to?
As Trump pointed out what about the statues to the slave owners George Washington and Thomas Jeffersron et al. Why is Robert E Lee considered worse than them and why should the "left" decide?
What about characters like Oliver Cromwell some hate him some proclaim him a great progressive. Should he go?
JimL wrote:As Trump pointed out what about the statues to the slave owners George Washington and Thomas Jeffersron et al. Why is Robert E Lee considered worse than them and why should the "left" decide?
The left? Is that everyone who isn't from the extreme right? I understand it was the democratically elected local council that decided to remove the statue. If you can't work out the difference between statues of Washington and Lee you only have to look at what they commemorate.
JimL wrote:As Trump pointed out what about the statues to the slave owners George Washington and Thomas Jeffersron et al. Why is Robert E Lee considered worse than them and why should the "left" decide?
What about characters like Oliver Cromwell some hate him some proclaim him a great progressive. Should he go?
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson may have had moral failings, but they did not fight a war for the right to own slaves. The 'left' is not deciding. The people making the decisions to take these statues down are moderate elected representatives of both main parties. It is only a small minority of people who object. These people are largely made up of those from the extreme right, including white supremecists.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.” ― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
JimL wrote:As Trump pointed out what about the statues to the slave owners George Washington and Thomas Jeffersron et al. Why is Robert E Lee considered worse than them and why should the "left" decide?
What about characters like Oliver Cromwell some hate him some proclaim him a great progressive. Should he go?
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson may have had moral failings, but they did not fight a war for the right to own slaves. The 'left' is not deciding. The people making the decisions to take these statues down are moderate elected representatives of both main parties. It is only a small minority of people who object. These people are largely made up of those from the extreme right, including white supremecists.
Wasn't the right to own slaves implicit in the war of independence and of course the inalienable rights weren't extended to slaves.
Washington/Jefferson what they fought for , what they believed and the similarity to Lee.
Washington fought for self determination for the Union (of States) and secession from the British Empire.Lee fought for self determination for States and secession from the Union. They both believed in slavery.
In Washington's time it was so accepted that it wasn't necessary to explicitly mention it but by Lee's time it was clear that traditional slavery was doomed and wage slavery was the future.
So why knock down Lee and not Washington/Jefferson and many others. Why not knock down Custer for his role in the Indian wars (even if he was on the union side in the civil war) as the native Americans got a pretty raw deal. Why not knock down Carnegie for exploiting all that freed labour in the Pittsburgh steel mills but then again he was a great philanthropist.
History is as it is,good or bad , and shouldn't be confined to a museum.
Knock them all down for all I care, but please don't use it as an excuse for what white supremacists are doing today and the lack of condemnation from Trump
I think the issues of statues is an excuse for underlying motivations. If there were no statue of Lee in the town would there be white supremacists there protesting that one should be erected. The statue is a symbol and I think focusing on a lump of metal/marble (or whatever they are made out of) misses the issues that are really going on.
Psamathe wrote:I think the issues of statues is an excuse for underlying motivations. If there were no statue of Lee in the town would there be white supremacists there protesting that one should be erected. The statue is a symbol and I think focusing on a lump of metal/marble (or whatever they are made out of) misses the issues that are really going on.
Ian
Which is hatred without reason,which = division,which = what Trump is all about.
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Psamathe wrote:I think the issues of statues is an excuse for underlying motivations. If there were no statue of Lee in the town would there be white supremacists there protesting that one should be erected. The statue is a symbol and I think focusing on a lump of metal/marble (or whatever they are made out of) misses the issues that are really going on.
Ian
Which is hatred without reason,which = division,which = what Trump is all about.
Trump (and my fishing buddy) would argue that there's a whole class of society who have been excluded by recent administrations.
Nobody seems to be able to truly unite, it seems to be an either/or choice.
This is difficult to watch, but it's worth the time. The white nationalists tell us in their own words what this is about. The journalism is excellent. It 20 minutes, so a bit long by modern internet standards, but a bot short for a documentary. The best (worst) bit is right at the end.
Psamathe wrote:I think the issues of statues is an excuse for underlying motivations. If there were no statue of Lee in the town would there be white supremacists there protesting that one should be erected. The statue is a symbol and I think focusing on a lump of metal/marble (or whatever they are made out of) misses the issues that are really going on.
Ian
Which is hatred without reason,which = division,which = what Trump is all about.
Trump (and my fishing buddy) would argue that there's a whole class of society who have been excluded by recent administrations.
Nobody seems to be able to truly unite, it seems to be an either/or choice.
Care to eloborate?
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"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Vorpal wrote:This is difficult to watch, but it's worth the time. The white nationalists tell us in their own words what this is about. The journalism is excellent. It 20 minutes, so a bit long by modern internet standards, but a bot short for a documentary. The best (worst) bit is right at the end.