On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

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horizon
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by horizon »

Dingdong wrote: 28 Nov 2022, 1:32pm
I think fast charge batteries could be a game changer.
I don't own an electric bike so can only speculate. But my concerns would be still be weight, cost and complexity (apart from the much wider issue of cobalt extraction which I think is outside the scope of the present discussion).

My ideal scenario for an ebike (I imagine) is one where a standard bike would be really useful (as in a congested city) but is hindered by the existence of a long, steep hill. Bath comes to mind! In this scenario, overnight charging is perfectly feasible for a short daily commute. However, those who do own an electric bike may have a different take on things and find that slow charging is the main issue.

PS Family members who own electric bikes but don't use them mention the weather and traffic as the chief deterrents!
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
mattheus
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by mattheus »

horizon wrote: 28 Nov 2022, 1:58pm PS Family members who own electric bikes but don't use them mention the weather and traffic as the chief deterrents!
There is always A Reason - but that's probably for a different thread ...
PH
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by PH »

horizon wrote: 28 Nov 2022, 12:48pm Well, extraordinarily, that five years has now passed - in fact a couple of months ago. Two lessons from this:
1. Doesn't time fly? :D
2. Don't make predictions.

So, how did the prediction fare?
What wasn't predicted five years ago was the rise in popularity of electric scooters, were they even around five years ago? IMO this skews everything, I no longer see it as being about E-bikes but about all small E-transport. I'd be surprised if future regulation distinguished between them, or wasn't written in a way to include future developments.
I think what I had in mind is that battery technology would improve exponentially - lighter, cheaper, longer lasting. AFAIK, that hasn't happened
I don't know of any great leaps, though improvements have been made. Bosch's 500 Wh Powerpack has increased to 540Wh, same size and fittings. BMS seems to have improved. with claims of increased service life. I don't think there's any incentive in the E-bike market for faster charging, not many users are going to exceed the 50+ mile range and there's usually plenty of time to recharge between such rides. Of course E-bikes are still likely to adopt such technology, if developed elsewhere. The big R&D in battery tech seems to be in finding replacements for lithium, but again it isn't being led by the E-bike manufacturers.
I predicted at the start of this thread that we were going to see E-bikes become more popular than bikes for those primarily interested in transport, I still think I got the E part right, just less sure about them being bikes.
jimlews
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by jimlews »

Surely, e bikes are just the latest incarnation of mopeds.
i.e. two wheels, a motor, AND PEDALS.
So not really in the bicycling lineage.
Nearholmer
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by Nearholmer »

Except that mopeds developed from pushbikes, so both the petroleum and electric versions have s common ancestor ….. as indeed do motorcycles, the clue being in the term.

I think I can see a future where a high proportion of ‘light transport’ thingies are electric, scooters or bikes, but the ‘sport/exercise’ side will also stay big, and largely pedal-powered.

Think how popular sport/exercise is in general, and think how many people cycle in one form or another for “fresh air and exercise”, and think about how much money is spent in that sector - in money terms it may be bigger than ‘casual leisure’ and ‘utility’, although likely smaller in terms of bikes sold.
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horizon
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by horizon »

jimlews wrote: 28 Nov 2022, 3:37pm Surely, e bikes are just the latest incarnation of mopeds.
i.e. two wheels, a motor, AND PEDALS.
So not really in the bicycling lineage.
I was in Evans the other day (waiting for someone!) and stumbled across their line of ebikes. You wouldn't have noticed them with a casual glance. I think the pedelec regulations and lithium-ion batteries have created a development in cycling that distinguishes it more from motorcycles than bicycles. There is of course now an almost seamless progression of electric two-wheeled vehicles from ebikes to motorbikes but the law has created a threshold: no helmet, no number plates, reasonably lightweight, OK on trains etc etc. It has kept ebikes within the remit of bicycles.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
reohn2
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by reohn2 »

jimlews wrote: 28 Nov 2022, 3:37pm Surely, e bikes are just the latest incarnation of mopeds.
i.e. two wheels, a motor, AND PEDALS.
So not really in the bicycling lineage.
Depends what you mean by Ebikes,if it's the present pedelec Ebike as defined by UK law,ie;250watt motor limited to 15.5mph pedal assisted,they aren't they're power assisted bicycles.
Mopeds only need pedal assist to begin moving upto perhaps 5mph,after which the motor takes over and independently powers the vehicle,though pedal assist may be needed on the steepest of hills,such machines need driving licence,reg plate,MOT,third party insurance and helmet.
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Dingdong
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by Dingdong »

An internal gearbox mounted in the bottom bracket would seem a wise move forward. Taking all the sensitive, wear heavy parts 'indoors' seems like a real step forward for ebikes. There's no need to have them externally mounted, could revolutionise rather than incremental change
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by Dingdong »

This is Canyons idea of the future, with a refillable hydrogen fuel cell, and disc brakes attached directly to the spokes. The frame borrows from the old 'softride' ideas from the 90's with flexible suspension top tube. The move away from traditional batteries and all their associated woes would be exciting!
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millimole
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by millimole »


reohn2 wrote: Mopeds only need pedal assist to begin moving upto perhaps 5mph,after which the motor takes over and independently powers the vehicle,though pedal assist may be needed on the steepest of hills,such machines need driving licence,reg plate,MOT,third party insurance and helmet.
This may well have been the old definition of a moped, but the current one is as follows :
"A moped (category AM) is defined as having a maximum design speed over 25km/h (15.5mph) but not exceeding 45 km/h (28 mph); or a light quadricycle with an unladen weight not more than 350kg and up to 45km/h."
The current licence class required is (I believe) P as a minimum.

I have a (legal) e-moped an NIU UQI - and frankly, a maximum speed of 28mph is far too slow for modern roads (even 30mph roads) - it's probably going in the spring!
Leicester; Riding my Hetchins since 1971; Day rides on my Dawes; Going to the shops on a Decathlon Hoprider
jimlews
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by jimlews »

I'm aware of the common ancestry - pedal cycle // motor cycle // e bike etc.

It's all part of a misguided notion that everything has to be made easier.
So fast (easier) "food" has led to an epidemic of obesity, ably assisted by car culture
and now e bikes (which discourage active travel).

The only difference that I can see between the "stink wheel" devices of former times
and todays electric bicycles is that the pollution they cause has been deferred to the
end of the battery life. And then there is the slave labour mining the rare elements required
to produce them...
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Cugel
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by Cugel »

jimlews wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 4:12pm I'm aware of the common ancestry - pedal cycle // motor cycle // e bike etc.

It's all part of a misguided notion that everything has to be made easier.
So fast (easier) "food" has led to an epidemic of obesity, ably assisted by car culture
and now e bikes (which discourage active travel).

The only difference that I can see between the "stink wheel" devices of former times
and todays electric bicycles is that the pollution they cause has been deferred to the
end of the battery life. And then there is the slave labour mining the rare elements required
to produce them...
You're misinformed about the nature of e-bikes. Why opine on them when you have no direct experience of using one?

In fact, e-bikes seem to be getting a lot more people out and pedalling (and you do have to put effort into pedalling e-bikes) than are ordinary bicycles. Those obese and otherwise physically degraded folk you mention find the prospect of a non-e-bike daunting so if the e-bike is far less daunting (and it is) this may be the key to getting such folk off their sofa and maybe even off their junkfud & drank.

The pollution from batteries at end of life is going to be far worse from those of e-cars, vans and lorries. On the other hand, their advent as a major energy source in today's world will surely be a stimulus to recycle old batteries in a far more useful way; and to invent e-storage media that isn't polluting, either when being created or being recycled. The electricity they use is already on the road to being produced in a far less damaging way than by oil, gas and coal powered generators.

Or would you prefer we all stick to fossil fuel for energy?

Cugel, festooned with solar panels.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
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jimlews
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by jimlews »

"You're misinformed about the nature of e-bikes. Why opine on them when you have no direct experience of using one?"
Cugel: In uncharacteristically petulant mode :D

One doesn't have to hammer nails into ones own head to know that it isn't going to end well.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61880383

Jim: open to discussion, but not argument.
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Cugel
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by Cugel »

jimlews wrote: 29 Nov 2022, 8:14pm "You're misinformed about the nature of e-bikes. Why opine on them when you have no direct experience of using one?"
Cugel: In uncharacteristically petulant mode :D

One doesn't have to hammer nails into ones own head to know that it isn't going to end well.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61880383

Jim: open to discussion, but not argument.
Following your timely warning, I have taken our e-bike batteries and given them to the local fire brigade to guard and observe, so that when they burst into flames I can obtain their video with which I will sue Fazua, the rascally firestarters!

Mind, I went out on one of them e-bikes today and nothing even got warm, especially me. Well, I was a bit sweaty but then I always am, even at 6 degrees C. The battery wasnae, though. This evening my legs and even some other parts seem quite well pedal-tired. Do you think I might have a faulty motor, that should be offering to do all the work so my legs can rest, shrink and eventually wither?

Ha ha - don't worry. The software insists I give at least as many watts as the motor is prepared to offer. Also, I am big and tough, me, so I switch it off altogether most of the time. I may get a light-up sign that goes on the handlebars (perhaps with another on the rear mudguard) that says, "I've got the motor switched off, you know"!

Cugel, having to pedal even harder to get the weight of the motor & battery up the little hills.
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
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Cowsham
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by Cowsham »

The ebike is just another enabling tool I use so I embrace it.

Like the mobile phone which let's me have more independence.

I enjoy riding my normal bikes too but the ebike helps me travel more by bike.

It's a bit unique at this point in time because you have all the advantages of a bicycle. Eg being able to go where any normal bicycle can go so getting access to places you can't take a car or motorcycle.
I am here. Where are you?
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