On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

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mjr
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by mjr »

reohn2 wrote:In the UK the reason cycling is so unpopular,and don't run away with the idea it isn't,is because it's inconvenient, and perceived as dangerous,stack that against the car's incredible convenience and you have your answer.

It is indeed perceived as dangerous in some surveys (Mintel's Bicycles in the UK, notably), but not inconvenient. Actually, in some surveys such as our local KLATS one, cycling is perceived as convenient, healthy and faster than alternatives in an urban area. You may be right that cars are perceived as more convenient, but I don't have numbers on that - do you?
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horizon
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by horizon »

While I don't discount people's safety concerns about traffic I don't think that surveys have ever really got to the real reason for people's reluctance to cycle. It is so obvious that the car is a more comfortable, faster, less strenuous and indeed more adaptable (read children, luggage, dogs etc) form of transport that people's concerns about safety are always going to be buried beneath this pile of perceived advantages. It's only when traffic becomes intolerable, parking impossible, fuel too pricey or the waistline too gross that people turn to cycling. My point about EAPCs is that they combine the advantages of cycling with the ease of motoring. That has little to do with safety.


Footnote:

I think it is also true to say that if those who choose to go by car due to safety fears (despite their wish to cycle) were actually honest, they would vote for, campaign for and demand safer roads. They don't. Indeed they sit on juries and councils and make the situation worse. And then fly to their holiday destination, drive too fast and generally ignore the safety of cyclists. I simply don't believe that traffic is what puts people off cycling. Convenience is everything.
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reohn2
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by reohn2 »

mjr wrote:
reohn2 wrote:In the UK the reason cycling is so unpopular,and don't run away with the idea it isn't,is because it's inconvenient, and perceived as dangerous,stack that against the car's incredible convenience and you have your answer.

It is indeed perceived as dangerous in some surveys (Mintel's Bicycles in the UK, notably), but not inconvenient. Actually, in some surveys such as our local KLATS one, cycling is perceived as convenient, healthy and faster than alternatives in an urban area. You may be right that cars are perceived as more convenient, but I don't have numbers on that - do you?

I live in a congested part of the country,Greater Manchester,and to Mr and Mrs Average the car is far more convenient and safer,that's obvious by the lack of utility cyclists I see daily.
I don't have any numbers on that but I do recognise the lack of or poor cycling facilities and the number of cars on the roads.
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reohn2
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by reohn2 »

horizon wrote:My point about EAPCs is that they combine the advantages of cycling with the ease of motoring. That has little to do with safety.

But they don't have the ease of motoring because anyone who uses a bike,powered or not,as transport has to first get over the shock of feeling vulnerable amongst motors some of which are driven aggressively,they then have to come to terms with the feeling of the perceived slowness of the bike.
Don't underestimate these two things the first of which has everything to do with safety,perceived or actual.
IMHO regular cyclists forget how big an obstacle vulnerability in traffic is to overcome for someone who doesn't cycle and who's only previous means of transport has been either the car or public transport,especially if they don't see many other people cycling.
The least line of resistance is safety perceived or real.


Footnote:

I think it is also true to say that if those who choose to go by car due to safety fears (despite their wish to cycle) were actually honest, they would vote for, campaign for and demand safer roads. They don't. Indeed they sit on juries and councils and make the situation worse. And then fly to their holiday destination, drive too fast and generally ignore the safety of cyclists. I simply don't believe that traffic is what puts people off cycling. Convenience is everything.

Convenience is safer too from their POV.
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mjr
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by mjr »

horizon wrote:While I don't discount people's safety concerns about traffic I don't think that surveys have ever really got to the real reason for people's reluctance to cycle. It is so obvious that the car is a more comfortable, faster, less strenuous and indeed more adaptable (read children, luggage, dogs etc) form of transport that people's concerns about safety are always going to be buried beneath this pile of perceived advantages.

I've already mentioned that "faster" isn't regarded as true. I suspect some of the others aren't either but I don't have data. There's plenty of other things that people used to claim to be obvious which have turned out not to be true: the sun being yellow, the earth being flat, creationism, ...

In gods we trust - all others must bring data.

horizon wrote:My point about EAPCs is that they combine the advantages of cycling with the ease of motoring. That has little to do with safety.

Yeah, that's something I'd agree with. Things will get really interesting when we have Ecotap e-bike rechargers in cycle parks, instead of only those space-wasting e-car chargers in car parks.

horizon wrote:Footnote: I think it is also true to say that if those who choose to go by car due to safety fears (despite their wish to cycle) were actually honest, they would vote for, campaign for and demand safer roads. They don't. Indeed they sit on juries and councils and make the situation worse. And then fly to their holiday destination, drive too fast and generally ignore the safety of cyclists. I simply don't believe that traffic is what puts people off cycling. Convenience is everything.

People need help organising structures to campaign/demand - otherwise they drift along in the status quo, unable to see a cycleway to the future. The old cycling clubs like CTC/CUK aren't really organising people any more, which is why I think we're seeing another new wave of campaigners and campaigns more inclined to direct-action and community-organising, learning from how the 80s/90s ex-FoE/Greenpeacey ones didn't all work. In this view, I'm probably seen an old fart but if the newcomers get things done, I don't care :-)
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Ruadh495
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by Ruadh495 »

I think there is something in this. Both "traffic" and "convenience".

A while ago the Pedelecs forum had a survey of those who used e-bike for commuting. It asked questions about commute distance and one about cycling experience. There weren't many responses, but one thing which stood out on the "experience" question was the number of e-bike commuters with motorcycle experience. I find I draw on motorcycle techniques constantly when I ride the e-bike and that experience really makes a difference in one's approach to traffic.

My own e-bike directly replaced a light motorcycle. It's used for the same commute and I sold the motorcycle once I got the e-bike. I find it more convenient using less special clothing and being kept inside so it doesn't need so many locks (I've had a motorcycle stolen in the past). No tax, insurance, MOT etc helps, plus the benefits of a couple of hours moderate exercise each day.

It hasn't replaced any unpowered bikes, I wasn't using those for commuting anyway. It might be replaced by one, since the fitness gained on the e-bike probably makes unpowered commuting possible.
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by NUKe »

Took the ferry from Felixstowe to Harwich yesterday we had a Recumbent and an elecitric bike, the 2 people coming in theopposite direction also had electric bikes. A friend in his 80s and a really keen cyclist uses one. They are brilliant form of transport.
If we could convince the world, they are easy then we could solve traffic and health problems.
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reohn2
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by reohn2 »

Mrs R2 had an appointment at Salford Royal yesterday,just outside the main entrance there were three bikes parked up at the Sheffield stands,two were Ebikes :)
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mercalia
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by mercalia »

a step up from an ebike?

[youtube]qYAH1wpUOiw[/youtube]
reohn2
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by reohn2 »

mercalia wrote:a step up from an ebike?

[youtube]qYAH1wpUOiw[/youtube]

There are a few electric motorcycles/scooters/mopeds around,that's just one,which could be conceived as a "step up" but IMO it's another catagory of transport separate from bikes or E-bikes because it requires no rider impute,it's equivalent would be say a Honda 50.
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kwackers
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by kwackers »

reohn2 wrote:There are a few electric motorcycles/scooters/mopeds around,that's just one,which could be conceived as a "step up" but IMO it's another catagory of transport separate from bikes or E-bikes because it requires no rider impute,it's equivalent would be say a Honda 50.

Looks like someones nicked the engine off it.
Needs a pretend plastic one to stick in the gap in the frame.
reohn2
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by reohn2 »

kwackers wrote:
reohn2 wrote:There are a few electric motorcycles/scooters/mopeds around,that's just one,which could be conceived as a "step up" but IMO it's another catagory of transport separate from bikes or E-bikes because it requires no rider impute,it's equivalent would be say a Honda 50.

Looks like someones nicked the engine off it.
Needs a pretend plastic one to stick in the gap in the frame.

Yeah,odd looking innit,and yet they insist on having a motorcycle type petrol tank pressumably the batteries when the batteries would nicely fill in the hole :?
Methinks form/pretence before function......

PS, just watched it again and saw it has a halogen bulb in the headlight :?
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reohn2
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by reohn2 »

As an aside to the thread,I like the idea of small electric motorcycle,say 750 to 1000watt with a decent battery size giving a realistic range with a limited speed of say 30 to 40mph,obviously some sort of rreg plate and insurance would be needed but as a separate catagory to ICE powered machines.
They could be popular
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by kwackers »

reohn2 wrote:As an aside to the thread,I like the idea of small electric motorcycle,say 750 to 1000watt with a decent battery size giving a realistic range with a limited speed of say 30 to 40mph,obviously some sort of rreg plate and insurance would be needed but as a separate catagory to ICE powered machines.
They could be popular

The motorman is 2kw with a 30mph top speed - which is probably about right. Might see 40mph on a good day with the wind behind it.

My personal 'thang' would be for a 30mph bike/motorcycle but without registration/MOT etc but with insurance.
My main reasoning is because what you mention already exists. It's just an electric motorbike - technically aside from the way it looks the motorman is it.

So what I think is better is something similar but around the power you suggest which will generally see it at 25-30mph but much more bicycle like in its simplicity and use, i.e. it fills a gap between bicycles and motorcycles and as such becomes a good alternative for some folk to a car.
Because it's not much quicker than a bicycle I don't see the need to MOT or license it but insurance should be cheap enough and desirable given its extra mass and a bit more speed.

Funnily enough I spent my dinner looking at petrol scooters with a view to converting them. A scooter is a good form fact imo. Legs out of the weather & spray and should be easy enough to 'electrify'. Stick in a 2KW motor and about the same in batteries and it'd be a good little run about - also it's already registered so just needs the details changing - far easier than messing around getting the type approval you'd need if one used a bicycle as a base.
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Re: On the cusp of cycling's greatest revolution

Post by Cyril Haearn »

I have seen the future and it works

In central London private motors are a small minority
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