Cycling as a whole; losing the plot...?

[meic]

Even if there was agreement about the general principle, there seems to be an awful lot of debate about exactly where it kicks in. As ever it seems to kick in at that the level which is just beyond what the person speaking seems to value as useful for them.
Or even just on what they like!

[reohn2]

TBH I can't see the problem with STI's from a user POV,I've covered ooh,must be well over 120,000 miles on them and they worked fine for me,comfortable easily accessible from all but the tops position,so no complaints.
From a cost POV they're ridiculously expensive,but what price convenience?
Cable replacement by the roadside can be a PITA if the cable breaks inside the unit especially if in a low gear and the tumbler needs persuading back to the highest gear position,which is the only position where the nipple is visible and can be removed,though to be fair it's arare occurance and if cables are changed regularly,which at £4 max a pop isn't a dealbreaker.
I've never had the hidden gear cable type and wouldn't want them as cable changing could be a potential nightmare roadside.
All that said,the more I used Kelly Take Offs the less I see a need for STI's as the only thing they offer that Kelly's don't is brake/gearchange which isn't high on my list of priorities TBH.
Kelly's offer gearchange from all hand positions including the tops and wont get damaged in a fall,whilst offering ease of cable change and cost a fraction of STI's but are hard to find these days,glad I scoured Ebay and bought a couple of spare pairs
I like me Kelly's

[pwa]

Those Kelly Takeoffs are surely just another (and useful) option for positioning the same lever type that gets called Down Tube or Bar End, putting them in a place you find more ergonomic. I'd probably be as happy with those as with my bar end levers, though I'm happy with the latter so don't feel the need to change. My wife used to have a bike with levers perched either side of the top of a quill stem, though they were much less easy to access on bumpy roads.

[meic]

From a cost POV they're ridiculously expensive,but what price convenience?

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-shifte ... ti-levers/
These are the modern version* of the ones which I bought a decade ago.
I think I have seen people pay more than that for a pair of tyres on this forum.

I wouldnt be surprised if the Kelly's cost that much or some of the bar-end levers which are being recommended as alternatives.

Oh look!
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares ... -per-pair/

*edit they may actually be the same ones on reflection.

[pwa]

From a cost POV they're ridiculously expensive,but what price convenience?

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-shifte ... ti-levers/
These are the modern version of the ones which I bought a decade ago.
I think I have seen people pay more than that for a pair of tyres on this forum.

I wouldnt be surprised if the Kelly's cost that much or some of the bar-end levers which are being recommended as alternatives.

Oh look!
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares ... -per-pair/

No, those STIs are cheap enough.

[meic]

Cheapest bar end shifters in the same shop are £14 more than those STIs
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-shifte ... n-control/
and you will still need to buy some brake levers.

[Ellieb]

I still can't help thinking that what this thread demonstrates is that some people just can't accept that others think differently to the way they themselves do. That, and an innate resistance to change.

[reohn2]

From a cost POV they're ridiculously expensive,but what price convenience?

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-shifte ... ti-levers/
These are the modern version* of the ones which I bought a decade ago.
I think I have seen people pay more than that for a pair of tyres on this forum.

You happened to have picked the only STI's I couldn't get on with as I found the little 'pegs' on the side were difficult to nigh impossible to reach from the drops,though they were very ergonomic from the hoods.

I wouldnt be surprised if the Kelly's cost that much or some of the bar-end levers which are being recommended as alternatives.

Oh look!
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares ... -per-pair/

*edit they may actually be the same ones on reflection.

And with a pair 9sp or 10sp d/t levers on top of that you wouldnt have muh change out of £120 ,point taken.
That said I've never bought a pair of Kelly Take Offs new,the last pair I bought of this forum were £35 s/hand IIRC

[reohn2]

I still can't help thinking that what this thread demonstrates is that some people just can't accept that others think differently to the way they themselves do. That, and an innate resistance to change.

Whilst I agree there's an element of that attitude from some posters,it could also be argued that some people think that all that gitters is gold.
Its true that some innovation is valid and progressive,but some is plain marketing hype and of limited use whilst costing the earth.
A 1x11sp compared to a 3x9sp drivetrain for example for the reasons I posted previously.
Minimum spoke factory built wheels that go wildly out of true if a spoke breaks and aren't backed up by hub spares because they consider throwaway items.
Di2 compared with cable operated systems that must be a joy when working but stop the ride in his/her tracks by a simple flat battery aren't progressive for the majority,merely a hand me down from top level racing which is only ever viewed from shaving a few seconds of a race,and not actually a rider fixing anything by the roadside such replacing a broken cable.

Edited for typhoids

[Bmblbzzz]

I still can't help thinking that what this thread demonstrates is that some people just can't accept that others think differently to the way they themselves do. That, and an innate resistance to change.

Just this thread?

[RickH]

Also, (unlike some DT levers) you can't turn the indexing off which means you are stuck with using a single type of cassette if you want your gears to work.

For years I stuck to Thumbshifters on my old MTB because of the option to revert to friction mode. I eventually realised that I hadn't actually used the friction mode in at least a decade so, when I replaced the shifters, went for rapidfires which were much more comfortable to use (& performed faultlessly - probably still do but they are no longer attached to a bike). YMMV

[amediasatex]

round and round in circles we go...

Everything has upsides and downsides, pros and cons, where that fits on your personal spectrum of 'worth it' is very much personal and a combination of your expectations and capabilities.

The thing I find a bit unsettling in this thread isn't the different viewpoints, not even the slightly stubborn reluctance to acknowledge that other people might want different things, no, it's the instance that people with opposing viewpoints are wrong, and in some cases some pretty disparaging words have been thrown about (gullible, fool, naive etc.) and I find it quite unpleasant if I'm honest.

Contributors from both extremes have put forward their personal justifications for certain bits of kit, the pitfalls they perceive and the things they like, and that's just it, some of the pitfalls might be a deal-breaker for person X, where as for person Y it's not even a mild worry, that doesn't make either of them wrong, it just means they're different people with different requirements.

The truth of the matter is that the range of kit available these days is so wide that it does cater for almost every need, and very little is actually imposed upon you without there being an alternative. Even those lamenting the loss of certain kinds of bike and/or kit would have to grudgingly accept that actually it's not lost at all, it's still available if you want it, and even if the 'mainstream' market doesn't cater for you that doesn't mean the mainstream is wrong, it just means you're not mainstream...for example this whole STI debate, they've not become ubiquitous due to some conspiracy, they've become ubiquitous because the average person riding a bike finds them to perform adequately to their needs and offer benefits over alternatives. The long distance tourer, or roughstuffer are not the mainstream market.

disclaimer...

yes I have bikes with STI, and ergos, and downtube, and bar end, and SS/fixed, derailleurs and IGH, disc and rim brakes, thin tyres and fat tyres, drop bars and flat, 1,3,5,8,9,10 and 11 speed, made form steel, aluminium, (not Ti any more) and carbon, and you know what....they're ALL good, and they ALL have pros and cons.

I don't feel hoodwinked or duped, or gullible or anything, I simply ride the bikes I want to ride with the features that are important to me. anything I find lacking enough to really be a problem gets passed by, and anything that I find really offers something good might spread to my other bikes too.

In summary, I like riding bikes, and I think we have it pretty good really...

[bigjim]

I often think we have too much choice and I'm not sure that the more choices we have makes us any happier. I find that people these days are terrible decision makers. They diddle about before they can make their mind up. Too much choice IMO.
I know club riders that just have one bike. Often it is an old classic bike with DT shifter, 27" wheels, narrow bars etc. They keep pace with everybody else and just get on with it. They rarely talk about bikes. Many of them riding the same bikes for thirty years ish. The main change I see is he lowering of their gears but thats a reletively simple thing to do on a simple bike. Some people don't have the inclination to move on to something new and others always find the need to upgrade or move on to so called improved designs.
It's a funny old game.

[MikeDee]

I think A-head type headsets are an advance over quill types and I like them better. They eliminate the frozen, corroded stem inside the steerer problem and threads that weaken the steerer tube. They allow for materials other than steel for steerer tubes and are lighter than quill stems. They are easy to adjust. They eliminate the wedge which can distort and thus weaken the steerer, and eliminate the long stem bolt that can fail. They made it simpler and better.

Riding in the rain destroys bikes anyway so I rarely ever do so. Bicycle bearings are poorly sealed against water intrusion. If you must, ride a beater bike in the rain, not your good one. Anyway, the industry moved away from quill stems, so grousing about it is futile.

Isn’t there a way to better seal A-headset bearings? RTV silicone? Rubber boot? O-ring in the top cap?

[amediasatex]

Anyway, the industry moved away from quill stems, so grousing about it is futile.

And yet, happily they're still available for those that do want to use them.

I still do use them on a couple of my Audax bikes, not because I want to use a threaded headset but because I find the extra flex of the quill stem and standard diameter bars* offers a degree of extra comfort on long distance rides.

While I don't think it's impossible to get that from a threadless setup I've not found a threadless setup as comfy even when all other factors are the same.

Wouldn't dream of using anything but threadless on other bikes though, horses for course again...

*yes I know I could use them in a A-head stem, but that's only half way there.