Cycling UK Forum

It's a good thing that there are many different types of bikes available for all of the different interests and uses in our broad church.

Airsporter1st wrote:It seems that many have embraced high tech to a degree, but at a certain level of progression, become afraid of it. I believe that's the human condition.

I observe something else, namely that the people who best understand new technology are least likely to unconditionally accept it. And so you have Brucey of this forum voicing his doubts on progress, Tom Anhalt fighting a lonely battle against disc brakes and tubeless tyres on racing bicycles, Jobst Brandt blasting the industry for carbon fibre, low-spoke-count wheels, cassettes with more than about five sprockets, etc.

It’s notable that the biggest proponents of change almost always have a vested interest in the change or have gaping holes in their understanding of technology or both. Name an exception if you dare! (Maybe Lennard Zinn comes close? Though he still often explains the downside of new technology, and anyway his job hinges on talking about new technology – that vested interest again. Frank Berto was generally progressive, but many of his beliefs have proven unfounded with the benefit of hindsight. I recently read his 1988 Complete Guide to Upgrading Your Bike and was surprised at how many then-novelties he espoused that were later abandoned for lack of benefit or market acceptance.)

All too often, the problem arises with an ill-conceived definition of the problem to be solved. A lot of recent developments in bicycles and consumer goods (you mention cars) have solved non-existent, hypothetical, or insignificant problems at tremendous cost and opportunity cost. That the new technology is sexy doesn’t make it useful or economic or, rationally speaking, progress.

Progress in bicycle technology remains evident and necessary, but all that glitters is not gold. I’m astonished that this view is considered radical!

Airsporter1st wrote:........It seems that many have embraced high tech to a degree, but at a certain level of progression, become afraid of it. I believe that's the human condition.

There's nothing wrong with technological advancement in itself,indeed it got us where we are as a species,the problems begin when it becomes an end in itself,where bicycle development is concerned IMO we've reached that point in some aspects

I agree. Mountain bikes are even worse than road bikes in being more complicated.

Things I could do without: disc brakes, non user repairable wheels, carbon fiber rims, tubeless road tires, internal cable routing, proprietary integrated components, changing standards like Boost. Even STI shifters where you can't inspect the cable for fraying so you can replace it before it breaks (and it will).

Airsporter1st wrote:......Similarly, I have a iPhone that does more than make phone calls, but it also handles even that simple task more effectively. Its never occurred to me that I should stick with an old first generation mobile phone....

Mobile phones are a good example of how marketing and not effective technology is driving the show IMO.
Whilst I agree that smart phones are better in many ways than basic mobile,how much better is Apple's new iPhone X @ an estimated £1,300 a pop than it's predecessors?
Also it will only be technically supported by Apple until it's decided by Apple not to,the customer will have no say or choice in the matter!

Samuel D wrote: ..... Frank Berto was generally progressive, but many of his beliefs have proven unfounded with the benefit of hindsight. I recently read his 1988 Complete Guide to Upgrading Your Bike and was surprised at how many then-novelties he espoused that were later abandoned for lack of benefit or market acceptance.)....

care to give any examples? I find that past performance is no guarantee of future success, but it is always interesting and usually informative.

cheers

thirdcrank wrote:It's a different plot aimed at selling as much stuff as possible.

It has always been.

We live in an age where labour is the main cost, materials are considered disposable. And labour is highly automated (is it the right word?) via CNC machines, 3D-printing and so on.
Add to this a worldwide market where patents are easy to break, there you go with 100 thousands seat collars that are the essentially same part, just re-branded, with a different finish and wildly priced from a few pennies to many pounds.

How does this happen, is beyond me as I'm not into marketing or business. What I can say, is that this creates a lot of confusion and essentially, people has no idea of what is the real price of a part.
I always say that BITD, a good bicycle would cost a month's wage, or more, and you'll keep it for long. Parts weren't cheap either, and would last some good time or very long time. OTOH, performance was limited*

More than "cycling", I think it's the worldwide market that is loosing the plot. Too much waste, too many things that are the same design copied over and over, no need for such confusion to the final user.
If only manufacturers would sell spare parts for cheap, making them affordable even trough the cost of inventory/warehousing; things would be better, IMO!


*= just remember the first Mtb brakes and pads, yes would last two or three years but braking was rather poor if compared to modern v-brakes where pads and rims wear a lot faster.

landsurfer wrote:I've just purchased a SPA Steel Touring .... It is lovely ... Just modern enough .... Lol

Just bought s Spa Titanium Toured which is perfect. But (relevant to this thread) is how many people have sneered at it because it only has a 9 speed block and square taper bottom bracket (probably the external headset will trouble some also)! I think that cycling is has elements where progress is for its own sake and not all is better. Every audax that I've gone on you hear creaking bikes with external bottom brackets (I changed my road bike bb for a square taper and it was the best downgrade I've ever done).

Thankfully spa and sus keep me stocked with old stuff!

I have never been sneered at for having a nine speed on my titanium bike.
In my case I had to buy the Sora 9 speed STI unit to use instead of the existing DuraAce 10 speed.
I dont know if I would do that now as 10 speed has come down so much in price since then.
Though recently when I thought the Sora might be getting worn out, it never crossed my mind to refit the DuraAce and go ten speed.
All of the frequent creaking from my external bottom bracket bike came from something other than the BB.
ie saddle rails, sandals etc.

At the first sign of a creaking BB I change my shoes ... Works every time ..

Brucey wrote:

Samuel D wrote: ..... Frank Berto was generally progressive, but many of his beliefs have proven unfounded with the benefit of hindsight. I recently read his 1988 Complete Guide to Upgrading Your Bike and was surprised at how many then-novelties he espoused that were later abandoned for lack of benefit or market acceptance.)....

care to give any examples? I find that past performance is no guarantee of future success, but it is always interesting and usually informative.

I read the book a while ago and may have overstated my case above. If so, that’s because the impression I got of Berto from the book was very different from the impression I had from his famous work on derailleur gears (that of a careful, precise, rational researcher). He comes across instead as a chatty, casual, very American, gadget-loving technophile.

Still, I can think of two examples off the top of my head: Shimano Biopace chainrings and the new construction technique used in Michelin Hi-Lite tyres. Berto was a fan of them both, but they’ve both fallen by the wayside.

You may know this, but I wasn’t aware of it before reading the book: the Hi-Lite didn’t use the standard two-three ply construction with parallel cords but instead a fine two-way mesh sandwiched between two coarser two-way meshes. The book doesn’t go into enough detail here, but it doesn’t sound like a system in use today. (It also sounds a bit bonkers to me, since rolling tyres need to change dimension across their plies and you’d think a mesh would hinder that – though perhaps not if a scissor action is possible?)

Fun book, by the way. Well worth a read.

I saw a full boing MTB parked outside a pub yesterday in Elterwater,on Mavic minimum bladed aero spoke wheelset,and a 1x10 or 11 drivetrain running something like a 28t chairing,hmm....

How do you know the owner doesn’t need to save a good quarter of a second on their uphill, off-road ride to the pub?

Samuel D wrote:How do you know the owner doesn’t need to save a good quarter of a second on their uphill, off-road ride to the pub?

Marginal gains