Campag freehub cassette carrier

For discussions about bikes and equipment.
ian peacock
Posts: 40
Joined: 17 Sep 2012, 5:09pm

Campag freehub cassette carrier

Postby ian peacock » 17 Sep 2017, 9:37am

Greetings earthlings, I have a very early campag record free hub , which is in A1 conndition. The cassette carrier is of the early type and has a 7-speed cassette. I would like to replace this with a 10 speed carrier(I have a spare one on an otherwise useless hub: the flange is cracked).
Before I start the job, and pawls and springs go pinging abouut all over the place, is the swap possible ? Ian

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50975
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Campag freehub cassette carrier

Postby Mick F » 17 Sep 2017, 9:41am

Not very good on early Campag, but I do have a question.
Seven Speed isn't usually a cassette, but a freewheel unit that screws onto the hub shell.

I had a Campag Record pair of hubs in the 1980s and 90s, and mine was a freewheel - originally 6sp then I fitted a 7sp freewheel.
If your's is/was like mine, you can't fit a cassette to it and 7sp is your limit.

........... or do you mean 8sp?
Mick F. Cornwall

Valbrona
Posts: 2428
Joined: 7 Feb 2011, 4:49pm

Re: Campag freehub cassette carrier

Postby Valbrona » 17 Sep 2017, 9:47am

In the case of Campag, cassettes started with the introduction of 8 speed. Assuming that's what you have, a newer 9/10/11 freehub body cannot be fitted.
I should coco.

SilverBadge
Posts: 577
Joined: 12 May 2009, 11:28pm

Re: Campag freehub cassette carrier

Postby SilverBadge » 17 Sep 2017, 9:51am

Best to look at the spares catalogues for the different hubs (all online). My pessimistic guess is that even if the pawls are in the same position, the axles and the way the freehub attaches will have changed over different generations of hub. Earliest 9sp hubs would take 10sp cassettes, was your 7sp 130mm not 126mm?

Brucey
Posts: 42940
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Campag freehub cassette carrier

Postby Brucey » 17 Sep 2017, 10:10am

there were 7s campag cassette hubs. They would not be easy to convert to 10s because

- the size of the axle is different in 10s hubs, so the bearings inside the freewheel body are different

- the axle length is different (7s was I think 126mmOLN), and you would need to find an axle that would work in the hub bearings but also accept the freewheel body. An 8s axle will be about the right length but still has the bearing diameter issue.

- there may be a difference in the dimensions of the freewheel body where the pawls engage with the hubshell. Again an 8s freewheel body of a similar type would work.

As I recall the axles in the early campag cassette hubs (both 7s and 8s ones) had shoulders on and could not (without a lot of machining work) be adjusted in position or the wheel redished at all. There was also a lot of wasted space between the largest sprocket and the spokes, that they eventually used up in 10s and 11s designs.

What you can do with your 7s campag cassette hub is to fit it with modified 10s or 11s sprockets, and keep it 126mm OLN. The modification is to shorten the splines in each sprocket and to reshape the timing spline. I have not tried this myself (on 7s, I've done 8s) but you might (esp if you are prepared to machine the shoulder back on the freewheel body slightly) fit 9 from 10 or even 10 from 11 onto a 7s freewheel body. If fitting a shortened cassette, you would have to lose a small (or the smallest) sprocket, probably, which requires some thought and planning.

Since Miche and Ambrosio made 10s cassettes that used a version of the original campag 8s spline, this would also be worth investigating for use with a 7s cassette hub.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Gattonero
Posts: 3730
Joined: 31 Jan 2016, 1:35pm
Location: London

Re: Campag freehub cassette carrier

Postby Gattonero » 17 Sep 2017, 10:19am

Valbrona wrote:In the case of Campag, cassettes started with the introduction of 8 speed. Assuming that's what you have, a newer 9/10/11 freehub body cannot be fitted.


Well, to be precise there has been a very short lived Campagnolo 7-speed cassette, with matching 7-speed freehub body. This was quickly replaced with the well known 8-speed freehub design, the 1st gen. with equal splines (and letters behind the cogs).
Image

Assuming we are talking of these hubs, the first design of Campagnolo cassette hubs with "hourglass" body shape, you can replace the freehub with the current splined pattern ones, those were named "9 speed" (earlier ones using a 26mm lockring) but would take 10 speed as well.
The reason why this 9 speed freehub won't take an 11 speed cassette is due to the spacing; though the splines do fit the cassette, the Rh spokes would end up touching the 1st cassette sprocket.

Also, those freehubs are quite rare to find, you can find old Veloce hubs in the same style and era, but needs to modify the spacer under the freehub, though this can be done by reusing the spacer that stays inside one of those freehubs (it's a thin 12mm ID)
Image
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

User avatar
Gattonero
Posts: 3730
Joined: 31 Jan 2016, 1:35pm
Location: London

Re: Campag freehub cassette carrier

Postby Gattonero » 17 Sep 2017, 10:24am

Brucey wrote:there were 7s campag cassette hubs. They would not be easy to convert to 10s because

- the size of the axle is different in 10s hubs, so the bearings inside the freewheel body are different

- the axle length is different (7s was I think 126mmOLN), and you would need to find an axle that would work in the hub bearings but also accept the freewheel body. An 8s axle will be about the right length but still has the bearing diameter issue.

- there may be a difference in the dimensions of the freewheel body where the pawls engage with the hubshell. Again an 8s freewheel body of a similar type would work.

As I recall the axles in the early campag cassette hubs (both 7s and 8s ones) had shoulders on and could not (without a lot of machining work) be adjusted in position or the wheel redished at all. There was also a lot of wasted space between the largest sprocket and the spokes, that they eventually used up in 10s and 11s designs.

What you can do with your 7s campag cassette hub is to fit it with modified 10s or 11s sprockets, and keep it 126mm OLN. The modification is to shorten the splines in each sprocket and to reshape the timing spline. I have not tried this myself (on 7s, I've done 8s) but you might (esp if you are prepared to machine the shoulder back on the freewheel body slightly) fit 9 from 10 or even 10 from 11 onto a 7s freewheel body. If fitting a shortened cassette, you would have to lose a small (or the smallest) sprocket, probably, which requires some thought and planning.

Since Miche and Ambrosio made 10s cassettes that used a version of the original campag 8s spline, this would also be worth investigating for use with a 7s cassette hub.

cheers


The 7-speed freehub I knew, was a Centaur Mtb one, it was 130mm OLD
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
Thus you remember them as they actually are...

ian peacock
Posts: 40
Joined: 17 Sep 2012, 5:09pm

Re: Campag freehub cassette carrier

Postby ian peacock » 17 Sep 2017, 3:03pm

Thanks for all the info. The hub is130 OLN and the carrier has equally spaced splines. My best guess is that it's an 8-speed hub, with a 7- speed cassette. I shall try to get hold of a compatible ambrosio or Miche cassette. Thanks again, Ian

Brucey
Posts: 42940
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Campag freehub cassette carrier

Postby Brucey » 17 Sep 2017, 5:58pm

I was thinking about these

Image
which are 7s/126mm
Image

with the same spline pattern as the first 8s.

7s campag freehub bodies have splines that are about 30.5mm long (by eye the freewheel body is about as broad as it is long) and 8s ones are ~5mm longer.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 50975
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Campag freehub cassette carrier

Postby Mick F » 18 Sep 2017, 6:25am

Question:
How were the 7sp cassette Campag shifted?
Did they have a 7sp Ergo?

I suspect that they used DT shifters, and they would have been to last that Campag produced.
Mick F. Cornwall

MartinC
Posts: 1909
Joined: 10 May 2007, 6:31pm
Location: Bredon

Re: Campag freehub cassette carrier

Postby MartinC » 18 Sep 2017, 11:26am

I used to have some 7 speed 126mm Campag cassette hubs. They were Athena and Xenon. They were of he same vintage (late 80's, early 90's ?) as Synchro DT shifters and there was a specific insert for the levers for them (as there was for different makes of freewheel originally, later versions of Synchro all had the same spacing). There were never any 7 speed Ergo shifters. I used the hubs well into the noughties with 8 speed ergos simply by dropping one sprocket off an 8 speed cassette 'cos Campag 7 and 8 speed spacing is the same.

I have no idea if I could've put an 8 speed or a 9/10/11 speed freehub on these. Not sure what the OP is trying to achieve. If it's to use the wheel in a 130mm frame with a 10 speed transmission then it's worth trying a new freehub. If the problem is a lack of 7 speed cassettes then AFAIK 8 speed 13-23 and 13-26 Record cassettes are still available and the 7 from 8 trick works.

If it's any help a Campag 7 or 8 speed transmission works on the same spacing as a Shimano 7 speed hub and cassette.

MartinC
Posts: 1909
Joined: 10 May 2007, 6:31pm
Location: Bredon

Re: Campag freehub cassette carrier

Postby MartinC » 18 Sep 2017, 11:41am

Mick F wrote:..................I suspect that they used DT shifters, and they would have been to last that Campag produced.


Campag produced 8 speed DT Synchro shifters, initially with an specific insert that would do 8 speeds and later just an insertless 8 speed version that worked (insofar as Synchro I or II ever worked) on 7 'cos the spacing was the same. At one time rear mechs were supplied with two bottom gear adjusting screws - a long one and a short one depending o whether you were going to use the mech on a 7 or 8 speed cassette/freewheel.

I still have some unused 8 speed Synchro levers in the garage - I just never got round to using indexed gears before I switched to Ergos and STIs.