Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

[Tangled Metal]

I wonder why this independence referendum is democracy. It's legally against the democratic constitution, it's self selecting because it's opposed by the Spanish state and it's rushed. Approximately 40% of Catalonia support independence, about 40% voted and about 90% voted for independence. Is that anything remotely similar to democracy?

Let's face it this Catalonia issue has no innocents they're all guilty of democracy failure.

[pwa]

I wonder why this independence referendum is democracy. It's legally against the democratic constitution, it's self selecting because it's opposed by the Spanish state and it's rushed. Approximately 40% of Catalonia support independence, about 40% voted and about 90% voted for independence. Is that anything remotely similar to democracy?

Let's face it this Catalonia issue has no innocents they're all guilty of democracy failure.

The referendum they had was flawed, as you say, and is no basis for declaring that the people of Catalonia have decided anything. But what Madrid seems to believe is that any referendum on independence, ever, would be unconstitutional. Secession would not be allowed even if everyone wanted it. That position is extreme.

[Tangled Metal]

Isn't that what the constitutional court ruled. It's against the constitution!

[reohn2]

I wonder why this independence referendum is democracy. It's legally against the democratic constitution, it's self selecting because it's opposed by the Spanish state and it's rushed.

So by that criteria unless the Spanish government gives permission there can never be democracy.

Approximately 40% of Catalonia support independence, about 40% voted and about 90% voted for independence. Is that anything remotely similar to democracy?

Let's face it this Catalonia issue has no innocents they're all guilty of democracy failure.

How many turned out for the EU referendum?
Was that Democracy?

[mercalia]

will be interesting how the Catalonian president fudges his backing down?

[pwa]

Isn't that what the constitutional court ruled. It's against the constitution!

Presumably correctly. A constitution drawn up by people who want to keep Spain whole does not allow secession. So where does that leave those who don't agree with that part of the constitution? If it feels rigged against them they must give up or act unconstitutionally. The rules of this game have been made by one side.

[mercalia]

Isn't that what the constitutional court ruled. It's against the constitution!

Presumably correctly. A constitution drawn up by people who want to keep Spain whole does not allow secession. So where does that leave those who don't agree with that part of the constitution? If it feels rigged against them they must give up or act unconstitutionally. The rules of this game have been made by one side.

its always like that? the law on the side of the establishment or vested interests? serious change only achieved thru revolution ( France, Russia ) or unilateral declarations and civl war eg the USA eg Cromwell and the English civil war. Spain is about to learn a lesson ( I hope ) that you cannot ignore large numbers of the population?

[Tangled Metal]

I wonder why this independence referendum is democracy. It's legally against the democratic constitution, it's self selecting because it's opposed by the Spanish state and it's rushed.

So by that criteria unless the Spanish government gives permission there can never be democracy.

No it's illegal because it's not allowed in the laws of the land namely the basis of the laws, the written constitution. That's how I've read the situation. IMHO if a democratic country produces a written constitution that has been agreed and adhered to by all of the country for as many democratic elections as Spain has I personally see contravention of it as undemocratic. YMMV of course.

IIRC Spain has a constitution that places importance on integrity of the whole of Spain. That is to not allow its break up. The writing of the constitution was a democratic I believe it was written at a time when independence of regions wasn't wanted. Desire for independence is still a very minority view in the whole of Spain. To change the constitution takes the whole of Spain through their democratic representatives in Madrid.

Now I don't know if you believe that it's ok to b go against the constitution or just have some vague view that it's always right to let people decide. The trouble is their political system requires majority consent through Spanish representative institutions in believe. Our system required Westminster consent and Holyrood to pass laws once given the right by Westminster. In some ways a similar situation. If Westminster hadn't voted for indyref then it top would have not been legal. Another difference, I firmly believe, is that Holyrood would not go ahead with an indyref without Westminster legislation allowing it

Basically my point is Catalonia ref was illegal. Spain had a right to prevent it. However I firmly believe that Spain should not have exercised that right. The Scottish indyref should have been the model to end the debate for awhile. The reason in Scotland it hasn't been put out of mind for a generation is because of Brexit Spain could have ended Catalonia independence supporters dream for decades much easier by allowing the constitution to be amended to allow the referendum to go ahead once.

[Tangled Metal]

Isn't that what the constitutional court ruled. It's against the constitution!

Presumably correctly. A constitution drawn up by people who want to keep Spain whole does not allow secession. So where does that leave those who don't agree with that part of the constitution? If it feels rigged against them they must give up or act unconstitutionally. The rules of this game have been made by one side.

The rules of the game was written by the whole of Spain not just Spain minus Catalonia. It was not rigged against them. Political views change with time but constitutions don't. With Catalonia it's basically a power grab. Catalonian representatives wanted it, Madrid didn't. Imagine a lower court ruled, a higher court overturned the decision on appeal. Acceptable? Catalonian parliament wanted indyref higher parliament didn't. Not acceptable. Both acted within the law (constitution). Catalonia then went outside of the law.

Unfortunately it does sound like things are stacked against them but that was the system they had a hand in creating. Abide by the rule of law or break it. Their decision to break it. Result? Nothing has changed to their independence. Just bad blood all around.

BTW Catalonia had 42% turnout. Scotland had 85% turnout. Would more have turned it off if was legal? Yes I reckon. But the way I see it 90% voted for independence out of 42% = about 38% of total Catalonia voters. Approximations and assumptions of course. Scotland with 85% turnout works out at 47% of all eligible voters went for no but 38% went with us. That's comparable. The best the independents could get is you assume the majority of voters in the indyref were pro voters.

The above is of course widely inaccurate guesswork but I bet any legal referendum in Catalonia would get a no vote even now. I just can't see why they bother going for it. Why not just go for greater powers. Scotland did that too of course but we haven't got this constitution or mentality of keeping it whole.

[reohn2]

TM
My point is a simple one,if Catalonia wishes to decide on it's own future by referring to the people that live there if that's their desire then it would be more democratic of the Spanish government not to stand in the way of that referendum.

Constitutions aren't the be all and end all of a society and are subject to change and challenges,that is what Catalonia is seeking to do.
So far the Spanish government's reaction t
to that challenge has been appalling,YVMV.

[Psamathe]

Maybe just another example of how humans keep failing to get along with each other.

I have a pretty low opinion of "Nationalism" as it seems to do little except put up barriers (and even lead to violence and wars).

Seems to me that most people in the world are seeking pretty much the same things, yet we fail to work cooperatively. If we could manage to work together more I think we could achieve a lot more.

Just like the UK no longer wants to be part of the EU ('cos we want to make our own laws"), so Catalonia no longer wants to be part of Spain, Scotland no longer wants to be part of the UK, etc., etc. Why can't humans cooperate rather than create divisions.

Ian

[pwa]

A constitution is a man-made thing, not something handed down by God. And Spain's constitution was made by the majority who feel themselves to be Spanish to prevent secession by regions where a lot of people feel themselves to be something else. I don't see why secessionists should respect that constitution since it was drawn up to defeat their aspirations. Imagine if Scotland voted to leave the UK but the rest of the UK conspired to keep Scotland in the Union. You could call that democracy, but it would be a feeble excuse for hanging onto a land that does not want to stay.

[Psamathe]

Many (here, in reports, etc.) seem to be saying Spain is being un-democratic in denying Catalonia a referendum. But I thought their constitution was decided democratically. And were the electorate in Catalonia presented sensible and complete arguments for and against independence e.g. how independence would affect their membership of the EU, how it would impact their economy, etc. Most put support for independence in Catalonia at 40%'ish (i.e. not a majority).

Is what we are seeing over the last month anything more than independence activists stirring things up, playing politics? And whatever the actual support for independence, seems likely its not massively one way or the other so yet again we see politicians dividing a people. Rather than bringing people together they are pursuing their own ideology and creating division. Is this what politics is about - creating division ('cos it seems all our politicians are capable of doing these days).

Ian

[pwa]

Many (here, in reports, etc.) seem to be saying Spain is being un-democratic in denying Catalonia a referendum. But I thought their constitution was decided democratically. And were the electorate in Catalonia presented sensible and complete arguments for and against independence e.g. how independence would affect their membership of the EU, how it would impact their economy, etc. Most put support for independence in Catalonia at 40%'ish (i.e. not a majority).

Is what we are seeing over the last month anything more than independence activists stirring things up, playing politics? And whatever the actual support for independence, seems likely its not massively one way or the other so yet again we see politicians dividing a people. Rather than bringing people together they are pursuing their own ideology and creating division. Is this what politics is about - creating division ('cos it seems all our politicians are capable of doing these days).

Ian

If Catalonia feels itself to be non-Spanish, being told that the majority of Spanish people have democratically voted to hang onto them is not going to help resolve the matter. And long term Spain will not be best served by hanging onto a region that feels itself to be a prisoner. A wiser course of action would be to make a case for unity and organise a free a vote. If, as some say, there is not majority support in Catalonia for independence this matter can be put to bed. That is the grown up way to deal with this.

[meic]

Why can't humans cooperate rather than create divisions.

Separate nations do co-operate.
The Catalonian separatists will be hoping to co-operate with Spain and the rest of the world once they are free from being subjugated by the Spanish majority.
Interestingly it is the larger nations (France and Spain) who have promised not to co-operate if separation occurs. I guess the EU is holding a similar line.