Catalonia: Democracy (European style)

[Tangled Metal]

Two out of every five voters believe in Catalonian independence. Is it democratic to ignore the three of of five not wanting it? Those were the levels of support for independence in polls conducted before the fake referendum that was held against all common sense IMHO.

It was never going to mean anything with seizures of poling cards, closures of stations, etc. Add heavy handed as Madrid's approach was it stopped the referendum having any meaning.

So what democracy is there if they issue a ID? what democracy?

Get real! There was never likely to be a mandate for independence. Plus there is no stable independence coalition to drive it through into statehood. The coalition that went into the last election in Catalonia did not get a majority. A left wing party stepped up to give it a majority in the Catalonian assembly (or whatever it was called). The reason why they've not declared a UDI already is because they can't agree what to do afterwards with the creation of a viable state. The coalition is very unstable.

Just look at who makes it up. Left wing state is big types mixing it up with conservative free marketeers. Then that small left wing party that stepped in after the election to act as Kingmaker. It's even further left. There's arguments over in eu/out of eu, in euro /out of euro and many other arguments.

I'm sorry this whole independence debacle has no democratic mandate, it's got no shared values across the coalition and it's doomed to fall apart. I just hope before irrevocable changes to ahead. The 16th largest economy in the eu of it went independent and joined the eu would not come out very well I fear.

So I question what basis those for this independence place that support? I wonder if you are comparing Catalonia with Scotland and seeing it through the Scottish political lens. It's totally different not least because there is no large scale independent party that could form a stable government. You're wishing disaster on Catalonia, IMHO, purely because of your democratic ideals.

You're seeing ppl fighting to vote and siding with the underdog. IMHO it's a wildly flawed idea. It's one I firmly held until I looked into it further. Although I'm not saying you haven't I am just saying your beliefs have led to a totally different view than mine. One that I simply cannot see working for Catalonians.

If course I respect your views despite what I've written above. I feel strongly that as bad as Madrid's actions the Catalonians independence movement's actions are going to end up being worse. I guess it's the same way I felt about Brexit. The difference being Brexit was based on democracy. They've not got that basis.

[AlaninWales]

A constitution is a man-made thing, not something handed down by God. And Spain's constitution was made by the majority who feel themselves to be Spanish to prevent secession by regions where a lot of people feel themselves to be something else. I don't see why secessionists should respect that constitution since it was drawn up to defeat their aspirations. Imagine if Scotland voted to leave the UK but the rest of the UK conspired to keep Scotland in the Union. You could call that democracy, but it would be a feeble excuse for hanging onto a land that does not want to stay.

This.
It took a UK parliament to 'permit' the Scottish independence referendum. Although the SNP threatened to hold it without UK parliament agreement, this was a negotiating stance which put the political pressure on UK parliament. Had they refused (as Madrid did to Catalonia) and the SNP went ahead anyway, how many here would accept that - because of our constitution - we should send riot police into Scotland to prevent the poll being held?
As it happens, the UK agreed within its own mechanisms (and subject to caveats) that a referendum should be held. For whatever reason the vote was to remain part of the union.
Had Madrid agreed to allow the poll and had the parties campaigning against separation convinced their voters to turn out, the result would likely have been to remain part of Spain. The last time this was run in 2014, a 37% turnout had an 80% majority for separation. That is around 1.8million of a reported adult population of around 7 million. Similar numbers apparently managed to register their support for separation this time, despite the police violence.
Of course Madrid might not be able to convince the remaining 5 million that it is worth turning out to prevent separation, but that is democracy.
What Madrid did is the equivalent of UK parliament refusing to recognise the right of the Scots to vote for independence, then sending in the riot police.

[meic]

One that I simply cannot see working for Catalonians.

That is real democracy, when the people are free to make the "wrong" choice.

[mercalia]

A constitution is a man-made thing, not something handed down by God. And Spain's constitution was made by the majority who feel themselves to be Spanish to prevent secession by regions where a lot of people feel themselves to be something else. I don't see why secessionists should respect that constitution since it was drawn up to defeat their aspirations. Imagine if Scotland voted to leave the UK but the rest of the UK conspired to keep Scotland in the Union. You could call that democracy, but it would be a feeble excuse for hanging onto a land that does not want to stay.

This.
It took a UK parliament to 'permit' the Scottish independence referendum. Although the SNP threatened to hold it without UK parliament agreement, this was a negotiating stance which put the political pressure on UK parliament. Had they refused (as Madrid did to Catalonia) and the SNP went ahead anyway, how many here would accept that - because of our constitution - we should send riot police into Scotland to prevent the poll being held?
As it happens, the UK agreed within its own mechanisms (and subject to caveats) that a referendum should be held. For whatever reason the vote was to remain part of the union.
Had Madrid agreed to allow the poll and had the parties campaigning against separation convinced their voters to turn out, the result would likely have been to remain part of Spain. The last time this was run in 2014, a 37% turnout had an 80% majority for separation. That is around 1.8million of a reported adult population of around 7 million. Similar numbers apparently managed to register their support for separation this time, despite the police violence.
Of course Madrid might not be able to convince the remaining 5 million that it is worth turning out to prevent separation, but that is democracy.
What Madrid did is the equivalent of UK parliament refusing to recognise the right of the Scots to vote for independence, then sending in the riot police.

as i said its the Spanish mindset not give up any land

[Psamathe]

Two out of every five voters believe in Catalonian independence. Is it democratic to ignore the three of of five not wanting it? Those were the levels of support for independence in polls conducted before the fake referendum that was held against all common sense IMHO.

It was never going to mean anything with seizures of poling cards, closures of stations, etc. Add heavy handed as Madrid's approach was it stopped the referendum having any meaning.
.....

Which is why I wonder if the whole purpose is more to goad Spain into reacting (in a heavy handed manner) which might push more to supporting independence.

Ian

[AlaninWales]

Two out of every five voters believe in Catalonian independence. Is it democratic to ignore the three of of five not wanting it? Those were the levels of support for independence in polls conducted before the fake referendum that was held against all common sense IMHO.

It was never going to mean anything with seizures of poling cards, closures of stations, etc. Add heavy handed as Madrid's approach was it stopped the referendum having any meaning.
.....

Which is why I wonder if the whole purpose is more to goad Spain into reacting (in a heavy handed manner) which might push more to supporting independence.

Ian

Which is why I wonder whether the heavy-handed reaction by Spain was a deliberate act to provoke Catalan violence and distract from the governing party's current weakness.

[mjr]

IMHO if a democratic country produces a written constitution that has been agreed and adhered to by all of the country for as many democratic elections as Spain has I personally see contravention of it as undemocratic. YMMV of course.

That's all well and good but the current Spanish constitution was produced in 1977 by a Cortes ruling under the Francoist Leyes Fundamentales which wasn't regarded as a democratic country, so what does that mean for your opinion on Catalonia's attempt at self-determination as democratic? Does the constitution created by those elected under Franco's laws count as democratic merely because no body elected under it had challenged it yet?

And it doesn't seem true that it's "been agreed and adhered to by all of the country" because that's how we got here, with Catalonia refusing to adhere to it, so isn't that definition a bit circular?

The writing of the constitution was a democratic I believe it was written at a time when independence of regions wasn't wanted.

Specifically, it was written at a time when independence politics had been suppressed for over 40 years and independence politicians interned, tortured and sometimes executed for part of that. It's not exactly surprising that pro-independence parties didn't get enough seats in the Cortes to get one of the 7 seats on the commission - they went to 3 Union of the Democratic Centre deputies (34% of popular vote giving 165 Cortes seats), 1 Popular Alliance (8% and 16), 1 Catalan Democratic Pact (an autonomist grouping - 3% and 11), 1 Socialist (29% and 118), 1 Communist (9% and 20). Now, there's all sorts of strange going on there, isn't there? Was it democratic or not?

A referendum approved it with 92% of 67% turnout, but the alternative was continuing under Franco's Leyes, so it doesn't seem like a question with any other useful answer to me, even for Catalan nationalists.

[mjr]

Many (here, in reports, etc.) seem to be saying Spain is being un-democratic in denying Catalonia a referendum. But I thought their constitution was decided democratically.

That's debatable. See above. Of course it's a bit chicken-and-egg, as you need the democratic mechanisms of a constitution in order to decide a constitution democratically...

Most put support for independence in Catalonia at 40%'ish (i.e. not a majority).

Not an absolute majority, but 40% may well be a majority of those who would vote and that's still stronger support than the Conservatives have to govern the UK (37% in a recent BMG poll) so I caution people to be very careful about calling it undemocratic.

Also, one of the last polls conducted before independence was declared illegal in September gave Yes a very slim 50.1-45.7% lead. Can we trust poll results since? How many people are now scared that being asked if they support independence could be a police trap?

Is what we are seeing over the last month anything more than independence activists stirring things up, playing politics? And whatever the actual support for independence, seems likely its not massively one way or the other so yet again we see politicians dividing a people. Rather than bringing people together they are pursuing their own ideology and creating division. Is this what politics is about - creating division ('cos it seems all our politicians are capable of doing these days).

It shouldn't be, but it seems like increasingly politics isn't about how we should proceed but rather who's right and wrong. I blame apathy and failure to engage more of the electorate, which results in a death spiral of politicians thinking that if they can get their extremists, their "core", their "base" vote to turn out, then that will be enough to win power - the UK winner-takes-all system is probably worse than many for that because it means we don't often get the compromises-to-take-power coalition-building step that Germany's federal government is currently undergoing.

[mercalia]

so he has chickened out. well thats him finished?

"Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont has said his people voted for independence from Spain - but that he wants a negotiated solution with Madrid"

[Tangled Metal]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Constitution_of_1978

Of course it's Wikipedia but if you read it the constitution was enacted in December 1978, following a referendum. It was part of the change from the Franco regime.

Of course I have no idea if that was a legal referendum under the laws of the day. Catalonia referendum wasn't legal that I do know due to the court decision in their full knowledge of the laws, constitution and legal arguments.

I just can't understand how anyone can argue that Catalonia has any justification for a UDI from the flawed referendum without any legal framework behind it. Of course countries have been forged out of actions that were not legal but I'm pretty sure most of them were violent situations. I'm not talking the violence we've seen already but serious guns and death. I doubt it'll happen here. Hopefully we've seen all the violence there will be already.

The only justification for a UDI that I have read about is two sections in the spanish constitution that state the supremacy of international law. Those sections could mean there's some UN based human rights international law justifying a region within a country to enact a UDI to become a new nation.

[landsurfer]

I'm sure others may have stated this .. but ,

Spanish Government, hold a legal referendum in the Catalan region.
Make it a legal requirement for all Spanish / Catalan citizens* of the region to vote.
If the vote is positive for the Catalan Parliament, then offer a Scottish / Welsh solution.
If the result is positive for the Madrid Spanish Parliament, still offer the Scottish / Welsh solution but end the false history and Catalan language teaching in schools.
If Catalan is a modern language it will flourish as a second language in the region .... and if not ... ?


*They will have to define Citizen; passport holder, tax payer, in receipt of state benefits etc.

[Tangled Metal]

So the UDI was signed and issued only to be suspended immediately by the Catalonian president (or whatever his title is).

Any predictions what will happen next?

[Mick F]

Any predictions what will happen next?

Send in Wolfie Smith.
Power to the people!

[reohn2]

so he has chickened out. well thats him finished?

"Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont has said his people voted for independence from Spain - but that he wants a negotiated solution with Madrid"

Can you imagine what would've happened if he hadn't "chickened out"?

[mercalia]

so he has chickened out. well thats him finished?

"Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont has said his people voted for independence from Spain - but that he wants a negotiated solution with Madrid"

Can you imagine what would've happened if he hadn't "chickened out"?

well would have been somthing to comment on, on this thread, now its over it seems Madrid has won and wont budge an inch or cm in their case


So independance has been signed off but not declared and now the Spanish are preparing to take over control in Catalonia. I think I understand what Puigdemont is trying to do - to force Spain to take control, article 155 then he can make a declaration of independence as a way to seize back control from the tyrannical Spanish?