Cycling UK Forum

reohn2 wrote:

pwa wrote:I think you are wasting your time trying to work out how to define a "country". If you find a definition it will just be one person's opinion. What we can say about Catalonia, as well as Scotland and, to a lesser extent Wales, is that a substantial part of the populace is of the opinion that their land has an identity different from the larger entity it is currently a part of. They want their land to be a nation state. The desire is there.

Then one has to ask why the Spanish government is so opposed to the Catalonian province's referendum ?
And more than that why the need for such heavy handed tactics that does absouletely nothing for the Spainish government's standing both in Europe and Catalonia,their actions were a disgrace for a modern democracy and IMO will only harden the resolve of Catalonia

I agree. But the strong feelings exist on both sides. The UK and the EU could chip in and say "You are making a mistake" to Madrid, but that would only add to the anger and resentment of the rest of Spain. It would make them dig their heels in even deeper. They are not able to listen.

pwa wrote:
I agree. But the strong feelings exist on both sides. The UK and the EU could chip in and say "You are making a mistake" to Madrid, but that would only add to the anger and resentment of the rest of Spain. It would make them dig their heels in even deeper. They are not able to listen.

IMO it's not the EU's place to speak to the Spanish on the matter,but individual countries to voice concern over the lack of humanity on the way the issue is being handled.
As for Spain not being able to listen,isn't that the problem,with so many governments?

reohn2 wrote:

pwa wrote:
I agree. But the strong feelings exist on both sides. The UK and the EU could chip in and say "You are making a mistake" to Madrid, but that would only add to the anger and resentment of the rest of Spain. It would make them dig their heels in even deeper. They are not able to listen.

IMO it's not the EU's place to speak to the Spanish on the matter,but individual countries to voice concern over the lack of humanity on the way the issue is being handled.
As for Spain not being able to listen,isn't that the problem,with so many governments?

I think the general feeling in the UK is that Madrid is handling this wrong. Morally and tactically. But it is like when you have a friend who is making a mistake but they are so wound up that they cannot listen to words of warning and, if anything, will only become worse if you speak out in a frank way. It is tempting to say that we should condemn what Madrid is doing, but for our own governement to do that would not improve matters and might make things worse. For Spain outside Catalonia, passionately opposed to the breaking up of their country, yielding anything to the Catalan separatists would then also be yielding to outside interference. Another reason not to do it.

I've seen interesting interviews with Spanish ppl (catalan and rSpain). Pro independence catalonians said the obvious. Madrid person obvious statement but annoyed with violence from the Spanish side.

The most interesting view I read was from someone against independence. They said they were completely opposed to independence but did not vote. They had no voice which they blame Madrid for. The implications are that many anti independence voters wanted the referendum so they could say no to independence. Madrid took away their voice by refusing a legal referendum.

So from what I read it seems pro independents are against the actions of Madrid. Anti independents are against Madrid for not giving them the chance to shout this independence movement down through the majority voice being heard. Then there's the attitude of those around Spain who are anti independence but don't agree with the Madrid Government using violence against other Spanish ppl. Then there's the Spanish ppl thinking the Government should have gone on harder and others believe in article 155 I think it is that shuts down the regional government. The nuclear option with a few more cracked skulls!

Whatever happens there's going to be bad blood for a long time. For that Madrid government is to blame IMHO.

Tangled Metal wrote:Anti independents are against Madrid for not giving them the chance to shout this independence movement down through the majority voice being heard.

It's interesting and I suspect we simply don't know what the majority voice would be - pro-independence parties won an absolute majority in the last parliamentary elections, but of course like SNP voting in Scotland, it gets mixed up with all the other election issues.

Tangled Metal wrote:Whatever happens there's going to be bad blood for a long time. For that Madrid government is to blame IMHO.

For sure. There has been bad blood for a long time already and this just adds to it. Can the right-wing retain control of the PP after pulling this stunt?

Tangled Metal wrote:I've seen interesting interviews with Spanish ppl (catalan and rSpain). Pro independence catalonians said the obvious. Madrid person obvious statement but annoyed with violence from the Spanish side.

The most interesting view I read was from someone against independence. They said they were completely opposed to independence but did not vote. They had no voice which they blame Madrid for. The implications are that many anti independence voters wanted the referendum so they could say no to independence. Madrid took away their voice by refusing a legal referendum.

So from what I read it seems pro independents are against the actions of Madrid. Anti independents are against Madrid for not giving them the chance to shout this independence movement down through the majority voice being heard. Then there's the attitude of those around Spain who are anti independence but don't agree with the Madrid Government using violence against other Spanish ppl. Then there's the Spanish ppl thinking the Government should have gone on harder and others believe in article 155 I think it is that shuts down the regional government. The nuclear option with a few more cracked skulls!

Whatever happens there's going to be bad blood for a long time. For that Madrid government is to blame IMHO.

well it seems that Spain should become an explicit federation? But cannt see it happening as power hungry spanish politicians dont like to give up power ( or land )

mercalia wrote:well it seems that Spain should become an explicit federation? But cannt see it happening as power hungry spanish politicians dont like to give up power ( or land )

Plus I think the currently-governing PP is anti-federalist (like its European-level EPP affiliate that is currently in power at the EU). In that way, the PP is rather similar to the Conservatives and UKIP but without also being as keen to withdraw powers from the EU level (as far as I know).

Looks like the rumours of a declaration of indenendence are causing business issues. Banks are now starting plans to relocate out of the region

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/catalonia-banks-move-location-independence-catalan-protests-fear-customer-deposits-a7985951.html wrote:Banco Sabadell confirmed late on Thursday it will move its headquarters to the Spanish city of Alicante, while CaixaBank’s board will meet on Friday to consider transferring its registered office
...
Some of the Catalan banks’ wealthy clients have already started moving money to lenders outside the region or inquired about doing so, according to an executive at a firm that received calls from prospective customers.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/06/catalonia-business-independence-spanish-government wrote:The Catalan government has set up a crisis committee in an effort to halt the threatened haemorrhage of business out of the region if the region goes ahead with a unilateral declaration of independence (UDI)

Seems that Spanish law was changed some years ago to allow companies to relocate without seeking shareholder approval. But some banks never updated their own constitutions to reflect the new laws so Spanish Government is looking to further law changes to still allow relocation without seeking shareholder approval.

Update: looks like they have done it

[url]At least half a dozen companies, including the fifth-largest lender, Banco Sabadell, have already relocated or agreed to do so.[/url] wrote:Spain's government has passed a law making it easier for companies to move their official base out of Catalonia, a move that could deal a heavy blow to the region's finances.
....
At least half a dozen companies, including the fifth-largest lender, Banco Sabadell, have already relocated or agreed to do so.

Ian

so Spain has apologised to those injured but blames the catalonians for holding an ilegal vote - translated this means -

Sorry I kicked you in the head but you asked for it

some apology

mercalia wrote:so Spain has apologised to those injured but blames the catalonians for holding an ilegal vote - translated this means -

Sorry I kicked you in the head but you asked for it

some apology

Maybe wishful thinking, but Madrid seems to be softening its line slightly by admitting mistakes in policing and suggesting elections that would presumably give people a chance to vote for separatist or unionist parties, and thus acting a bit like a referendum. It sounds to me like progress.

pwa wrote:

mercalia wrote:so Spain has apologised to those injured but blames the catalonians for holding an ilegal vote - translated this means -

Sorry I kicked you in the head but you asked for it

some apology :roll:

Maybe wishful thinking, but Madrid seems to be softening its line slightly by admitting mistakes in policing and suggesting elections that would presumably give people a chance to vote for separatist or unionist parties, and thus acting a bit like a referendum. It sounds to me like progress.

I think both sides are handling this badly. Spain and it's policing were a disaster, but the Catalonians holding what was clearly (for whatever reasons) a flawed election and now apparently intending to declare independence of the basis of that flawed election is stupidly pushing Spain further.

When an election is declared illegal (by the courts) by the constitution governing the region, when police close down polling stations, when there is associated with the enforcement of a courts decision, etc. (rightly or wrongly) the outcome of that election is clearly flawed and to me inadequate to base a declaration of independence. And Spain has to react to the intended declaration of independence - it cannot ignore it. I suspect it likely that the Catalonian President/Government are doing this to push Spain into reacting more than anything else in the hope that Spain's reaction will move the electorate against Spain and more in favour of independence.

Ian

pwa wrote:

mercalia wrote:so Spain has apologised to those injured but blames the catalonians for holding an ilegal vote - translated this means -

Sorry I kicked you in the head but you asked for it

some apology

Maybe wishful thinking, but Madrid seems to be softening its line slightly by admitting mistakes in policing and suggesting elections that would presumably give people a chance to vote for separatist or unionist parties, and thus acting a bit like a referendum. It sounds to me like progress.

People voted to give independence parties (Together for Yes and the CUP) a majority in 2015's elections. Why is it progress if Madrid is allowed to turn the clock back two years?

pwa wrote:

mercalia wrote:so Spain has apologised to those injured but blames the catalonians for holding an ilegal vote - translated this means -

Sorry I kicked you in the head but you asked for it

some apology

Maybe wishful thinking, but Madrid seems to be softening its line slightly by admitting mistakes in policing and suggesting elections that would presumably give people a chance to vote for separatist or unionist parties, and thus acting a bit like a referendum. It sounds to me like progress.

is wishful thinking

"Any declaration of independence by Catalonia will have no effect, Spanish Prime Minister Marian Rajoy has warned, adding that he is not ruling out suspending the region's autonomy."

say the bbc

the title of this thread is apt Democracy (European style)

so 2m of catalans want independance, how can the Spanish govt ignore that as if nothing has happened? no soul searching. nothing.

Psamathe wrote:I think both sides are handling this badly. Spain and it's policing were a disaster, but the Catalonians holding what was clearly (for whatever reasons) a flawed election and now apparently intending to declare independence of the basis of that flawed election is stupidly pushing Spain further.

When an election is declared illegal (by the courts) by the constitution governing the region, when police close down polling stations, when there is associated with the enforcement of a courts decision, etc. (rightly or wrongly) the outcome of that election is clearly flawed and to me inadequate to base a declaration of independence. And Spain has to react to the intended declaration of independence - it cannot ignore it. I suspect it likely that the Catalonian President/Government are doing this to push Spain into reacting more than anything else in the hope that Spain's reaction will move the electorate against Spain and more in favour of independence.

Ian

maybe, but the Spanish govt wont countenance a referendum so they had no choice? The Scots would do the same if the uk govt refused? Its the intransigence of the Spanish that is the problem.

The Spanish have a long history of autocratic rule compared to eg the Uk?

mercalia wrote:

Psamathe wrote:I think both sides are handling this badly. ....

maybe, but the Spanish govt wont countenance a referendum so they had no choice? The Scots would do the same if the uk govt refused? Its the intransigence of the Spanish that is the problem.

The Spanish have a long history of autocratic rule compared to eg the Uk?

Thinking about the comparison to Scotland: I wonder what would happen if, suppose from long term polls there was a clear Scottish majority against independence, then a flawed illegal referendum was held (flawed for whatever reason), then based on that flawed referendum the Scottish Gov. intended to declare independence (illegally). Would we expect the UK Government to just sit and watch? Ok, rephrasing that, with any leader other than May, would we expect the UK Government to just sit and watch?

Ian