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Re: Missing cyclist off the A82
Posted: 25 Aug 2023, 6:24pm
by simonhill
I agree with above 2 posts.
12 years will probably mean release in 6 if good behaviour, etc. Maybe the crash wasn't intentional, but once it had happened, leaving the man to die, then burying him was cold. calculated and with intent. Surely this should amount to murder and warrant a life sentence which would be more like 15+ years actual custody. Oh, but he was only a cyclist!
Re: Missing cyclist off the A82
Posted: 25 Aug 2023, 8:56pm
by rareposter
simonhill wrote: ↑25 Aug 2023, 6:24pm
Surely this should amount to murder.... <snip>
Murder requires proof that the culprit set out to kill the victim deliberately which it's 99.9% certain that they didn't.
He pleaded guilty to culpable homicide which is one step down from that, basically that having hit him (the root cause being impairment through drink), he knew the cyclist was dying and did nothing to save him. It's the Scottish law equivalent to manslaughter (roughly).
I mean, I agree that the sentence should be far harsher but it's not murder. Sorry if that's pedantic but it
is an important distinction.
There's some background about the family here (the father had convictions for illegal firearms and illegal use of poisons, the sons had drink and dangerous driving convictions and the estate they all worked on as gamekeepers was well known for raptor persecution):
https://raptorpersecutionuk.org/2023/08 ... ch-estate/
Re: Missing cyclist off the A82
Posted: 26 Aug 2023, 6:44pm
by ChrisButch
rareposter wrote: ↑25 Aug 2023, 8:56pm
Murder requires proof that the culprit set out to kill the victim deliberately which it's 99.9% certain that they didn't.
He pleaded guilty to culpable homicide which is one step down from that, basically that having hit him (the root cause being impairment through drink), he knew the cyclist was dying and did nothing to save him. It's the Scottish law equivalent to manslaughter (roughly).
I mean, I agree that the sentence should be far harsher but it's not murder. Sorry if that's pedantic but it
is an important distinction.
There's some background about the family here (the father had convictions for illegal firearms and illegal use of poisons, the sons had drink and dangerous driving convictions and the estate they all worked on as gamekeepers was well known for raptor persecution):
https://raptorpersecutionuk.org/2023/08 ... ch-estate/
However, the original charge (subsequently downgraded to ch)
was murder, which suggests that there was some evidence not brought to court, presumably because the prosecution accepted it wasn't provable. I shudder to think what that evidence might have been.
One of the many oddities, incidentally, is that I can see no reference to a driving ban.
Re: Missing cyclist off the A82
Posted: 26 Aug 2023, 7:04pm
by pwa
Sometimes one has to read between the lines to come up with a likely scenario of what exactly happened. In this case my impression has been that while they cannot prove it, the police suspect that the victim was not killed outright and may have stood a chance if the drink driver who hit him had called for the emergency services. But they have not been able to prove that, and if they had, that still leaves a philosophical question of whether driving away when you could have tried to save your victim makes it murder. I reluctantly waver towards manslaughter, since it is really an act of omission. Either way, it would be an act of gross inhumanity, if it could be proven.
Re: Missing cyclist off the A82
Posted: 26 Aug 2023, 9:23pm
by maximus meridius
simonhill wrote: ↑25 Aug 2023, 6:24pm
12 years will probably mean release in 6 if good behaviour, etc.
There is no such thing as time off for good behaviour. This is a myth.
https://www.prisonersfamilies.org/relea ... he%20ERS).
Re: Missing cyclist off the A82
Posted: 26 Aug 2023, 9:25pm
by maximus meridius
rareposter wrote: ↑25 Aug 2023, 8:56pm
simonhill wrote: ↑25 Aug 2023, 6:24pm
Surely this should amount to murder.... <snip>
Murder requires proof that the culprit set out to kill the victim deliberately which it's 99.9% certain that they didn't.
Not quite.
https://crime.scot/murder/
Re: Missing cyclist off the A82
Posted: 26 Aug 2023, 9:29pm
by maximus meridius
rareposter wrote: ↑25 Aug 2023, 8:56pm
I mean, I agree that the sentence should be far harsher but it's not murder. Sorry if that's pedantic but it
is an important distinction.
The general public, and many posters here, don't really care about legal precision, sentencing guidelines and suchlike. Outrage, however understandable, at any crime, often results in "lock 'em up and throw away the key" responses.
Re: Missing cyclist off the A82
Posted: 27 Aug 2023, 7:56pm
by irc
We'll, yes and no. In Scotland for example lifers who have completed the minimum tariff must go through a program of training for release including various courses and home visits and other things. They frequently fail and are required to go back a step or two which can cost them years before being eligible for release again. So no time off for good behaviour but in effect time added on for bad behaviour.
Also as the Scottish Govt states parole is not automatic it depends on behaviour.
"he Parole Board for Scotland
A special committee called the Parole Board decides if prisoners can be released from prison on parole. When deciding if someone should be released on parole, it considers:
the original crime
how the prisoner has behaved in prison "
https://www.mygov.scot/after-the-verdic ... and-parole
Re: Missing cyclist off the A82
Posted: 28 Aug 2023, 1:25am
by maximus meridius
irc wrote: ↑27 Aug 2023, 7:56pm
We'll, yes and no. In Scotland for example lifers who have completed the minimum tariff must go through a program of training for release including various courses and home visits and other things. They frequently fail and are required to go back a step or two which can cost them years before being eligible for release again. So no time off for good behaviour but in effect time added on for bad behaviour.
Also as the Scottish Govt states parole is not automatic it depends on behaviour.
"he Parole Board for Scotland
A special committee called the Parole Board decides if prisoners can be released from prison on parole. When deciding if someone should be released on parole, it considers:
the original crime
how the prisoner has behaved in prison "
https://www.mygov.scot/after-the-verdic ... and-parole
Apologies, I stand corrected. Thanks for the update.
Though even the Parole Board itself seems to give "mixed messages":
Is parole a reward for good behaviour in prison?
No. Bad behaviour and breaching prison rules certainly does not help an offender’s case for parole. However, the Parole Board must look at wider issues than the offender’s behaviour in custody. The Board has regard to a wide range of information when considering the case from a variety of sources. The prisoner’s criminal record, his/her family background, what counselling/courses he/she has undertaken while in custody in order to address the causes of offending, the response to such counselling and the prisoner’s plans for release are all important.
from
https://www.scottishparoleboard.scot/fa ... g%20Date).
So, as you say, "yes and no". Certainly the idea of "time off for good behaviour" as some sort of automatic thing appears to be, let's say, a misapprehension.