Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

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PH
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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby PH » 27 Nov 2017, 12:18pm

thirdcrank wrote:This is one of my doubts about segregated cycling farcilities of every type: rarely, if ever, are they treated to prevent the formation of ice, remove snow, whatever. Indeed, if they are adjacent to a carriageway, they are likely to be used as a convenient dumping place for snow cleared from there, or the entrances across the farcility.

Does anyone know how it's dealt with elsewhere?
My understanding of the stuff they use on roads is it needs the traffic to make it effective. On a cycle path alongside a main road I've seen the overspill sat on top of ice doing nothing.
I try not to ride any more than I have to when it's likely to be icy, luckily I can divert to a gritted commuting route, even so I've still been caught out a couple of times when I wasn't expecting it.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 27 Nov 2017, 2:16pm

Hi,
Doc's says over phone "Get To A&E" :!:

I can't walk so I cant leave house to get to car....other end.....I will need wheel chair.
He said if you don't improve in 24-48 hrs then A&E..Call ambulance.........I don't want to bother others.
I'll wait a few day, doc says need X-ray etc.

Need blood test for latest BP meds Now, BP not good so need blood test before dose can be upped as this med can be damaging to kidneys, initially starting or upping dose unlike all other BP meds where annual test is all that is needed.
In case blood vessels to kidneys are narrowed from birth, but I can't get anywhere.
As long as I don't move I am not in pain at moment, will have to wait and see.
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
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old_windbag
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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby old_windbag » 27 Nov 2017, 2:38pm

mjr wrote:In general, my rule of thumb if it's below four degrees is to wait until it warms up and thaws if that's an option, else to take the studded-tyred MTB if it's available and practical (I'm not taking it on a train or bus, plus I can fit what I need in a bar bag, seatpack or backpack), else to take the folding bike or clunker - I can jump off the folding bike quickest if it all goes wrong and I'll cry less if the clunker crashes - with their tyres near the minimum pressures needed to avoid pinch flats, in the hope of extra grip, plus stick to the gritted carriageways shown on the council winter map.


Similar here as I cycle to keep fit rather than commute so can choose to avoid days where I know the winter sun won't rise high enough to thaw black ice on the smaller roads I use. The main carriageways tend to be ok as gritted but it's getting to them and also wanting a quiet ride, the two don't go hand in hand. Also if it has been dry for a few days when a frost occurs then those days can be ok too. I've been caught out several times riding on what seems like glass with the matt finish and have climbed off in time and walked bike until past hazard. I simply cannot afford not to work so not worth the risk.

A section of the NCN1 route was refurbished over several miles here to nice smooth tarmac, very nice to ride. About six weeks later they came back and chip-sealed the whole lot much to the discontent( and punctures ) of locals. My take on that was it would offer up a safer surface on frosty days than smooth tarmac would with surface water as none of these facilities are gritted. So even though the surface was not ideal it may have been more ideal in winter conditions.

reohn2
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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby reohn2 » 27 Nov 2017, 4:51pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Doc's says over phone "Get To A&E" :!:

I can't walk so I cant leave house to get to car....other end.....I will need wheel chair.
He said if you don't improve in 24-48 hrs then A&E..Call ambulance.........I don't want to bother others.
I'll wait a few day, doc says need X-ray etc.

Need blood test for latest BP meds Now, BP not good so need blood test before dose can be upped as this med can be damaging to kidneys, initially starting or upping dose unlike all other BP meds where annual test is all that is needed.
In case blood vessels to kidneys are narrowed from birth, but I can't get anywhere.
As long as I don't move I am not in pain at moment, will have to wait and see.

Phone an ambulance now,if you can't walk there couod be something seriously wrong.
Don't be silly!
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mjr
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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby mjr » 27 Nov 2017, 5:01pm

PH wrote:Does anyone know how it's dealt with elsewhere?
My understanding of the stuff they use on roads is it needs the traffic to make it effective. On a cycle path alongside a main road I've seen the overspill sat on top of ice doing nothing.

Would the yellower stuff they use in pedestrian areas work better?

In Copenhagen, they seem to use a trailer called an "epoke" to spread grit behind a minisweeper that's brushing most of the snow away from in front of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qKElOnEMqg - it might be http://www.epoke.dk/home/products/towed-spreaders/ske/

But they keep riding anyway, as shown in this video from the tourist board (yes, the tourist board! Can you imagine that for anywhere in the UK?) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q5jdZjmoR0 - that also shows a hand-operated lane/path clearing brush. Of course, they're often riding at least 37mm wide tyres, so there's more width of rubber that might find something to grip... and I think snow or even white ice is a lot easier to ride than black ice.

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Doc's says over phone "Get To A&E" :!:

I can't walk so I cant leave house to get to car....other end.....I will need wheel chair.
He said if you don't improve in 24-48 hrs then A&E..Call ambulance.........I don't want to bother others.

It'll be more bother to others if you delay more than needed and end up costing the NHS even more money... go as soon as you can and get well soon.

old_windbag wrote:Similar here as I cycle to keep fit rather than commute so can choose to avoid days where I know the winter sun won't rise high enough to thaw black ice on the smaller roads I use.

I cycle for travel but some trips I can reschedule.

old_windbag wrote:A section of the NCN1 route was refurbished over several miles here to nice smooth tarmac, very nice to ride. About six weeks later they came back and chip-sealed the whole lot much to the discontent( and punctures ) of locals. My take on that was it would offer up a safer surface on frosty days than smooth tarmac would with surface water as none of these facilities are gritted. So even though the surface was not ideal it may have been more ideal in winter conditions.

I don't understand what you mean. If it's going to freeze, I'd prefer smooth tarmac that will freeze over completely and let me slide if I fall, rather than have the tips of chippings sticking up through the ice and ripping my clothes and possibly me and the bike to shreds.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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thirdcrank
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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby thirdcrank » 27 Nov 2017, 5:14pm

One of the problems with those chips is that after application, the surplus needs to be swept up quickly or else it creates a skid risk for every type of vehicle no matter what the weather. Probably because the temporary warning signs show grit being thrown up by the wheels, for many years I wrongly assumed the advisory speed limit was to prevent everybody being gritblasted. Earlier this year I saw some 20mph signs (black 20 in a red circle) in North Yorkshire, but I don't know whether that was just someone's attempt to be more forceful.

I'd agree with what others have said about A & E.

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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby old_windbag » 27 Nov 2017, 5:26pm

mjr wrote:I don't understand what you mean.


Where it's located you get water from field/embankment sitting on the path. The rougher chip sealed surface doesn't let water "sit" on the surface in quite the same way as smooth tarmac does and provides more "grip" than the smooth would have done. It doesn't make for a smooth or efficient ride but as it's not gritted it is more rideable year round than a smooth surface would be. I don't feel this NCN1 section is particularly suitable for "road" bikes though and certainly not alone in that view around here. Also the 3/4mile NCN1 section feeding it is one of the worst sections of track I've ever encountered as a cycle path. Smooth tarmac on the highway gets gritted...... but more and more I'm seeing it replaced with chip sealed surfaces in this area rather than full resurfacing. It's cheap!

the surplus needs to be swept up quickly


I am finding that on the highways where this is supposed to be done typically 2 weeks or so after treatment it is often forgotten about. It is left to the cars to redistribute the excess chippings to the verges. Initially it is a nightmare to cycle through with cars flying past.

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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby mjr » 27 Nov 2017, 5:43pm

old_windbag wrote:
mjr wrote:I don't understand what you mean.


Where it's located you get water from field/embankment sitting on the path. The rougher chip sealed surface doesn't let water "sit" on the surface in quite the same way as smooth tarmac does and provides more "grip" than the smooth would have done. It doesn't make for a smooth or efficient ride but as it's not gritted it is more rideable year round than a smooth surface would be.

It would be much better if they actually fixed whatever drainage problem afflicts that section! Despite the various flaws about cycleways in Norfolk's Transport Asset Management Plan, they do actually act to clear standing water once it's reported because the local freeze/thaw cycle destroys surfaces (which are Transport Assets) so quickly.

the surplus needs to be swept up quickly


I am finding that on the highways where this is supposed to be done typically 2 weeks or so after treatment it is often forgotten about. It is left to the cars to redistribute the excess chippings to the verges. Initially it is a nightmare to cycle through with cars flying past.

It seems like it could easily be a false economy. As well as the verges where they probably do some low-price(!) damage to the wildlife there, a good dose of those chippings are redistributed to the drains and cause problems until they are dragged out. I suspect sucking up so many chippings will be causing enough extra damage to the drain sucking trucks that the drain maintenance contract will go up in price before long, or the service level will fall further - with consequences for the infrastructure repair budget either way.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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old_windbag
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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby old_windbag » 27 Nov 2017, 6:14pm

mjr wrote:It would be much better if they actually fixed whatever drainage problem afflicts that section!


It's in effect sitting about 3-4ft below the road that runs parallel a few feet away. But you know how these things are done in an often half baked fashion with good intention but not always the best implementation due to budgets. Put it this way the total cost of the facility over the length created would create 100yds of dualled A1. So a drop in the ocean in money terms. The dualling of the A1 is a vote winner around here as it is seen to be the key to the ultra prosperity of the area and the success of the businesses within it. Please everyone, take off your blinkers :wink: .

mjr wrote:It seems like it could easily be a false economy.


Yes there are good sections and apalling sections( that don't last 1-2 winters before failing ). It's odd as I'd expect the method and standard of application to be uniform across the county but it definitely isn't. I've seen some very good nearly loose-chip free applications this year yet also the complete opposite with no road sweeping. So whether these are different contractors that the council has appointed I don't know but I'd not expect such differences. I thought chip-seal was common across the UK now but perhaps it's county specific. You do notice the extra drag going from smooth tarmac to heavy chip-seal it does feel more energy wasting, I think this is sometimes what they describe as "heavy" roads( not hilly ) on the cycle racing commentary.

Lilyf
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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby Lilyf » 28 Nov 2017, 3:58pm

How are you today NA?
Hope the pain is easing and hope you’ve managed to get to A&E to be checked out.
Lily

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 28 Nov 2017, 7:17pm

Hi,
I am embarrassed to say that its not good, and I have not left the house.
I cant lift my thigh and leg when sitting.
I cant bear weight very easily and no chance that I can move on it.
Er in doors has to go to Torbay Hospital tomorrow with father, so I will probably hitch a lift.
I believe Torbay has wheel chairs available, I will need one for sure.
If I get there and can't get a wheel chair which will not surprise me (disabled site page says they have plenty at main entrance?) You know that feeling that you get there and there some stupid rule means its not for anyone other a certified disabled person :?
Might try 101 later or phone hospital in morning.

Today I have propelled myself around the place on a office chair with no back, first by leaning on it with straight arms,
getting to somewhere I can the sit on it.
So I make it to the kitchen and drop the idea of trying to get my coffee back to the lounge on top of chair opting for a carton of uht and an empty glass.
Then dinner prepared on the hob and microwave whilst sitting :)
How do I get dinner to lounge :idea: Plate on lap and propel myself with good leg backwards to lounge...........easy :)

No swelling in leg and no pain whilst sitting and sleeping till I turn over.
Managed a wash yesterday apart from my feet, no chance a shower.
I expect a tear / rupture of adductor inner thigh.
Gash in arm is squirting fluid all over the place yesterday changing dressing.
Part from that am trolling the TV and whinging here 8)
You get used to setbacks as you get older and have to be patient, that I am.
Not feeling too depressed, but I imagine that recovery will be slow.
Thanks for concerns.
I can here the don't be silly git and I do deserve it.
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 29 Nov 2017, 3:11pm

Hi,
Pushed myself down the path on office stool to car.
Paid a pound for wheelchair at hospital.
Docs initial diagnosis was fractured pelvis :o
But X-rays say no :)
He is surprised that no swelling and I can't bear weight on leg with groin pain.
Declined some crutches but changed mind, lost pound deposit :?
Hate traveling in rear of car :( But crutches make good direction tools :lol:
Timed just right with father's (inlaw) laser surgery, not spoken for over a decade but jovial.

5% better today but it will be slow to get back on bike Ho Hum.
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 1 Dec 2017, 7:17pm

Hi,
Update, can sort hobble about a six inch step but painful.
Declined shower today as in pain lifting leg over bath.
Crutches come in handy, can't see me doing without for some time yet.
If only I picked another day to get third training ride in, consolation is nothing broken.
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

brynpoeth
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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby brynpoeth » 1 Dec 2017, 9:10pm

It would be great if you could spend the recovery time adding to N = 37

Do you have a Gillott, a Claude, a Viking, a Falcon, a BSA?

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Warning Newton Abbot Race Course Cyclepath Black Ice!

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 1 Dec 2017, 9:50pm

Hi,
brynpoeth wrote:It would be great if you could spend the recovery time adding to N = 37

Do you have a Gillott, a Claude, a Viking, a Falcon, a BSA?

Diolch yn fawr

Claude Butler yes, if a 531 MTB frame is ok :)
Used to ride Viking until it was nicked :(
This is as close I can get to it, the saddle is correct and so the colour, rear derailleur was reverse selection, but it had large flange front hub?
http://classicvikingcycles.com/photo-ga ... n-sn-8011/
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..