Before I start, I must protect myself from personal attacks by pointing out that my family and I have a carbon footprint considerably lower than the national average.
The only time I drive my car (58mpg real consumption) with just me in it is when I go to Audaxes.
Here is the problem,
We are a cycling organisation NOT an environmental organisation.
That doesnt mean we cant be environmentally friendly but we should not do so if it is to the detriment of cycling.
Quite a lot of our present events are not environmentally friendly. A large proportion of organised rides (certainly out of cities) are dependant on car use. CTC Holidays use my annual carbon allowance on their flights alone!
To impose green policies on the majority (or maybee minority) who I shall call 'Climate change doubters' would not be appropiate for a club whose primary aim is to promote cycling.
"We bring together the largest, most dynamic, most DIVERSE, most passionate group of cyclists"
Sustrans are an environmental organisation
Greenpeace are an environmental organisation
Friends of the Earth are an environmental organisation
Personally I like the CTC to work with such organisations when our interests coincide, as they often do. However we should not do so if their (and my ) interests clash with club members who are trying to facilitate their cycling.
Climate Change Policy
I agree that CTC should be careful about jumping on the Environment bandwaggon (even if it has two wheels!). There is a lot of conflicting and mis-information being touted at the moment and it is easy to get sucked into the latest "Fad".
The "Should Cyclists Fly" article in Cycle magazine is a case in point. Richard George implores us not to fly and gives an example of someone flying to Australia to do a week's cycling! How many people do you know that would travel to Australia for a week's holiday? He also states that aviation is the fastest growing cause of climate change. This is debateable as the manufacture of concrete produces more CO2 than all the airlines put together and, with China using the stuff like it's going out of style, the use of that building material is only going to increase.
Flying from Heathrow to Paris does sound a little excessive but for those of us who live several hundred miles from London and the Channel ports, using local airports is the easiest (and often cheapest) way to get to the continent. Tried using the west coast rail line recently - especially on a weekend?
Cycling is a very healthy and environmentally friendly pastime and if CTC can drop that into its campaigning then fine but there is a large body of opinion that equates climate change with the earth's natural cycle (no pun intended!). Cycling should be the number one priority of CTC, other causes should be of a very secondary nature.
The "Should Cyclists Fly" article in Cycle magazine is a case in point. Richard George implores us not to fly and gives an example of someone flying to Australia to do a week's cycling! How many people do you know that would travel to Australia for a week's holiday? He also states that aviation is the fastest growing cause of climate change. This is debateable as the manufacture of concrete produces more CO2 than all the airlines put together and, with China using the stuff like it's going out of style, the use of that building material is only going to increase.
Flying from Heathrow to Paris does sound a little excessive but for those of us who live several hundred miles from London and the Channel ports, using local airports is the easiest (and often cheapest) way to get to the continent. Tried using the west coast rail line recently - especially on a weekend?
Cycling is a very healthy and environmentally friendly pastime and if CTC can drop that into its campaigning then fine but there is a large body of opinion that equates climate change with the earth's natural cycle (no pun intended!). Cycling should be the number one priority of CTC, other causes should be of a very secondary nature.
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thirdcrank
- Posts: 36740
- Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm
Re: Climate Change Policy
meic wrote:The only time I drive my car (58mpg real consumption) with just me in it is when I go to Audaxes.
Perhaps if we all list when we use our cars we could prepare a list of the type of car use we oppose.
The organisations listed by meic are enviro campaigning groups, and I agree that CTC should not take on the role of enviro campaigning generally, although where it intertwines with cycling (transport policy, land use, etc. ) then we should.
However, I still think we need a policy on climate change, and try to reduce our impact where we can. Many organisations whose primary goals are not environmental realise that climate change is likely to impact them, and are taking some actions (as they do affect their primary cause) to change how they do things.
Concrete production does produce loads of CO2, but it still may be growing less quickly than flying (wouldn't really surprise me) so RG's statement isn't necessarily incorrect. Furthermore, I can personally and directly reduce the amount I fly, and I can't personally reduce the amount of concrete used in China, so all the more reason for me to do what I can.
As for flying to Australia, I know of one person who flew there for a stag party for one weekend. People will do utterly foolish things at times, and even where something seems fairly sensible, the fact that it's the most convenient at the time doesn't necessarily justify doing it.
The West Coast mainline on weekends is rather painful, but during the week it's fast and easy. Even with bikes!
However, I still think we need a policy on climate change, and try to reduce our impact where we can. Many organisations whose primary goals are not environmental realise that climate change is likely to impact them, and are taking some actions (as they do affect their primary cause) to change how they do things.
Concrete production does produce loads of CO2, but it still may be growing less quickly than flying (wouldn't really surprise me) so RG's statement isn't necessarily incorrect. Furthermore, I can personally and directly reduce the amount I fly, and I can't personally reduce the amount of concrete used in China, so all the more reason for me to do what I can.
As for flying to Australia, I know of one person who flew there for a stag party for one weekend. People will do utterly foolish things at times, and even where something seems fairly sensible, the fact that it's the most convenient at the time doesn't necessarily justify doing it.
The West Coast mainline on weekends is rather painful, but during the week it's fast and easy. Even with bikes!
A few years ago I said air travel would be the new battleground for hearts and minds on this issue. OTOH informed, middle class people who've held 'travel broadens the mind' as a shibboleth but believe stag party, Costa fortnight air shuttles are unsustainable. On t'other the unavoidable reality that air travel stinks ecologically and only compares favourably to the very worst industrial practices.
It's a rum do.
It's a rum do.
I'd go very carefully on the whole global warming thing which seems to be more of a religion than science.
Cycling is a healthy and non poluting activity which is to be encouraged, nobody could deny that.
I start to get my hackles up when some "enviro-nazi" starts telling me I shouldn't fly to a holiday when they seem to be the first ones to jump on a jet and zoom off to a conference which always seems to be held at a five star tropical resort in places like Bali or the Maldives.
Why don't they just get a "monkey" like me to set up a multi point video conference for them? Perhaps they don't want to miss out on a jolly??
Take a look at some of the opposing evidence
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,337710,00.html
http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/col ... 12&k=39580
Rant over!
Cycling is a healthy and non poluting activity which is to be encouraged, nobody could deny that.
I start to get my hackles up when some "enviro-nazi" starts telling me I shouldn't fly to a holiday when they seem to be the first ones to jump on a jet and zoom off to a conference which always seems to be held at a five star tropical resort in places like Bali or the Maldives.
Why don't they just get a "monkey" like me to set up a multi point video conference for them? Perhaps they don't want to miss out on a jolly??
Take a look at some of the opposing evidence
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,337710,00.html
http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/col ... 12&k=39580
Rant over!
Derek - The enlightened petrolhead 
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reohn2
The more money people have the more they spend and they'll spend it on whatever is available,whether that is flash petrol hungry cars or foriegn holidays or extending their already adiquate houses(concrete),we in the western world have been conditioned into thinking that is the way to live,indeed the whole capitalist/consumer system/society is based on it.
What chance on changing volantarily,its the mindset thats at fault and will take a lot of getting out of the 'system' indeed if we want to and lets face it consumerism/capitalism isn't too keen on that happening.
So it is left to the individual, if they really want to they will, but the line of least resistance is to continue as before hence the incredible debt the west is in.
Its a habit worse than any drug addiction.
IMHO we are on the brink.
Our main problem is over population,seven billion people on a rock in space designed three billion,we are just too successful.
It would need everyone one on the planet to ride bikes everywhere to reduce global warming but two thirds want a car (take a look a China).We are just tinkering.
Its a dead end street,and we appear to going down it a 90mph thinking the wall at the end will move magically when we get to it allowing us to carry unhindered,fat chance at this rate.
Or maybe we should all be buying Hybrid cars (stifles giggle),stop flying and all holiday in the UK
,live in straw houses .The chances become fatter as I type.
PS I've never seen as many big 4x4's on the road (the type bought for yuppeism)as I see at present.
What chance on changing volantarily,its the mindset thats at fault and will take a lot of getting out of the 'system' indeed if we want to and lets face it consumerism/capitalism isn't too keen on that happening.
So it is left to the individual, if they really want to they will, but the line of least resistance is to continue as before hence the incredible debt the west is in.
Its a habit worse than any drug addiction.
IMHO we are on the brink.
Our main problem is over population,seven billion people on a rock in space designed three billion,we are just too successful.
It would need everyone one on the planet to ride bikes everywhere to reduce global warming but two thirds want a car (take a look a China).We are just tinkering.
Its a dead end street,and we appear to going down it a 90mph thinking the wall at the end will move magically when we get to it allowing us to carry unhindered,fat chance at this rate.
Or maybe we should all be buying Hybrid cars (stifles giggle),stop flying and all holiday in the UK
,live in straw houses .The chances become fatter as I type.
PS I've never seen as many big 4x4's on the road (the type bought for yuppeism)as I see at present.
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George Riches
- Posts: 782
- Joined: 23 May 2007, 9:01am
- Location: Coventry
- Contact:
GrumpyGit wrote:Take a look at some of the opposing evidence
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,337710,00.html
http://www.nationalpost.com/etcopinion/etc
Rant over!
Take a look at
http://www.skepticalscience.com/
Which takes every (or at least the most popular 48 ) argument raised by the skeptics - to pieces.
George Riches wrote:Take a look at
http://www.skepticalscience.com/
Which takes every (or at least the most popular 48 ) argument raised by the skeptics - to pieces.
Very interesting and this could bat back and forth forever but I'm still irked by the hypocrisy of the "high priests of the church of global warming" preaching at me for taking a holiday when they're clocking up more air miles than Captain Kirk!!
Derek - The enlightened petrolhead
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George Riches
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GrumpyGit wrote: I'm still irked by the hypocrisy of the "high priests of the church of global warming" preaching at me for taking a holiday when they're clocking up more air miles than Captain Kirk!!
It's human nature to believe that one is nicer and more more moral than one really is.
It's the other people who are bad!
I once heard that the only people you are liable to find with a realistic understanding of their true selves are likely to be suffering from depression
In reply to Thirdcrank. The basic rule of car use is that
Our own is justified and everyone elses is not.
We have had plenty of debate on whether climate change is real or not on other threads. That isnt the point of this thread. If you accept it or deny it let us take and accept those two positions as held and discuss the CTC's climate change policy which will have to cover both views.
Our own is justified and everyone elses is not.
We have had plenty of debate on whether climate change is real or not on other threads. That isnt the point of this thread. If you accept it or deny it let us take and accept those two positions as held and discuss the CTC's climate change policy which will have to cover both views.
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George Riches
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- Joined: 23 May 2007, 9:01am
- Location: Coventry
- Contact:
Well we are in obvious trouble if we shout how morally correct we are by cycling to work, but then use inter-continental flights for our cycling holidays.
Or fly off for weekend cycling breaks closer to home.
Maybe the CTC should reduce its promotion of holidays to places which involve thousands of miles of air travel. Replace them by stories about people cycling thousands of miles or cycling to a port, catching a ferry to one of our near continental neighbours and then continuing back on the saddle.
Make CTC - Cycle Touring Club, not frequent flying/driving with a dash of cycling at the other end.
Or fly off for weekend cycling breaks closer to home.
Maybe the CTC should reduce its promotion of holidays to places which involve thousands of miles of air travel. Replace them by stories about people cycling thousands of miles or cycling to a port, catching a ferry to one of our near continental neighbours and then continuing back on the saddle.
Make CTC - Cycle Touring Club, not frequent flying/driving with a dash of cycling at the other end.